View Poll Results: Is using a taser to arrest a noncoperative but nonviolent person "excessive force"

Voters
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  • Yes, always

    15 26.79%
  • Depends, sometimes yes, sometimes no

    26 46.43%
  • No, tasers are acceptable if a person is not cooperating

    13 23.21%
  • Don't know

    2 3.57%
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Thread: Taser Use

  1. #281
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    Re: Taser Use

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    I am asking for your actual experience not the various hypothetical situations you pose as answers. Obviously you choose not to respond to the original question. As such you have provided the answer by your conduct and that answer is NO.



    ....and now you suggest I am gay because I sing... I also play the flute and several other instruments....
    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    Your question was irrelevant to the point being made




    You are right, he probably would have just said "oops, my bad" and left so that I could give his description to the cops.



    From what I saw the comment that started this was him saying "you can't rely on the cops to save your life". You countered with a strawman comment twisting his point into "the police will let you die". That is not what he said.

    If you have some other point please restate it. I am not going back to dig rhrough pages of comments to find it.

    Otherwise you are just playing a silly game of "gothca"
    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    This does not substantiate where the police allowed you to die as your original position clearly states, "Don't rely on them to save your life..."


    Oh brother...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You were saying lpast?
    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    And there you have it. Gee I love it when I'm proven right.

    Gentlemen you misquoted me and taken my statement out of context. Try again from the beginning.

    My original question:

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    Can you give you experiences where you personally could not rely upon the police to save your life.

  2. #282
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    Re: Taser Use

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    Gentlemen you misquoted me and taken my statement out of context. Try again from the beginning.

    My original question:
    Nothing was taken out of context. You tried to say that I was claiming cops would let people die. Additionally, you have been continually trying to use this "personal experience" crap to diminish the ultimate premise that one is better off relying on themselves to protect themselves than they are to rely on the police. Your addition, in an attempt to diminish effect, is deflection and is utterly besides the point as the personal experience you keep claiming is not necessary for analysis of the entire system.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  3. #283
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    Re: Taser Use

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Nothing was taken out of context. You tried to say that I was claiming cops would let people die. Additionally, you have been continually trying to use this "personal experience" crap to diminish the ultimate premise that one is better off relying on themselves to protect themselves than they are to rely on the police. Your addition, in an attempt to diminish effect, is deflection and is utterly besides the point as the personal experience you keep claiming is not necessary for analysis of the entire system.
    No I never veered from the original question regarding the issue and the answer was NO. End of issue

    The offer still stands for Danny Boy...

  4. #284
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    Re: Taser Use

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    No I never veered from the original question regarding the issue and the answer was NO. End of issue

    The offer still stands for Danny Boy...
    The initial statement had nothing to do with the deflect question you tried to pose. In the end, you constructed nothing but dishonest argument in order to dismiss a point I made by somehow claiming that lack of "personal" evidence would mean my statement had no proper basis.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  5. #285
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    Re: Taser Use

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The initial statement had nothing to do with the deflect question you tried to pose. In the end, you constructed nothing but dishonest argument in order to dismiss a point I made by somehow claiming that lack of "personal" evidence would mean my statement had no proper basis.
    I asked a direct question to which there was only one answer, based upon your personal experience. If you did not want to answer the question you had several options: you could have ignored me, asked me to clarify, ask me to rephrase etc. What you chose to do was go off into many different areas for which I had no interest in joining you.

    Again the question:

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    Can you give you experiences where you personally could not rely upon the police to save your life.
    Last edited by Connery; 05-25-12 at 04:49 PM.

  6. #286
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    Re: Taser Use

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    I asked a direct question to which there was only one answer, based upon your personal experience. If you did not want to answer the question you had several options: you could have ignored me, asked me to clarify, ask me to rephrase etc. What you chose to do was go off into many different areas for which I had no interest in joining you.

    Again the question:
    Your question was answered several times, if you're not smart enough to read the posts and understand them I can do no more for you. The point is you made that question in response to my statement (as such, it's not an "original", but a response) in order to say "you don't have personal experience, you don't have a proper basis for an argument". But that's completely besides the point in total. It doesn't take personal experience in this case to analyse the whole of the system.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  7. #287
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    Re: Taser Use

    I'm sympathetic to civil disobedience, and of course abhor the use of a taser on a non-violent and pregnant woman.

    However, no one is above the law and her pregnancy changes nothing. All it does is break our hearts a little and demonize the police, and I know she won the case, but TBH would we even be talking about this person if she was not pregnant, or female?

    You should behave in a manner that if everyone did, everything would work out. Last I checked pregnancy gets your ALOT of consideration in America, but not special treatment under the law. I cant get pregnant, so I'll be damned if I'll support a person who thinks their condition grants them rights that are denied to me. I'd love to be able to tell all traffic police to piss off, but since society wouldn't work out so well if everyone did so.. Ignorance of the law, being female, or being pregnant is no excuse for noncompliance.

    I don't think they should have used a taser, but I also don't know how they should have proceeded. Law enforcement is a difficult and thankless job that, much like the military, you hear more about their mistakes than their positive encounters.
    Last edited by Spartacus FPV; 05-25-12 at 05:04 PM.
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    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  8. #288
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    Re: Taser Use

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It doesn't take personal experience in this case to analyse the whole of the system.
    I never said it did. I simply asked you about your personal experience...

  9. #289
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    Re: Taser Use

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    Gentlemen you misquoted me and taken my statement out of context. Try again from the beginning.

    My original question:
    you are obvioously confused. some how you misunderstand.

    you can't rely on them =/= they allow you to die

    YOU are the one who added in the "police allowed you to die". Ikari NEVER said that and his original comment did NOT imply that.

    one more try and I'll go slow.

    you cannot rely on the police to save your life in a crisis because you cannot count on a police officer being close enough to you to get there in time to prevent your death.

    I already gave you an example from my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE where I, as a military police officer, responded to a 911 call and even though I got to the residence in under 3 minutes, the victim was already dead by the time I arrived.

    Does that mean I allowed her to die?

    only an idiot would miscontrue "you can't rely on them" to mean "they will allow you to die"

    simple physics and the limited number of police GUARANTEES that a police officer cannot be in all places at all times. nor can you count on a patrol being near you when you become a victim of violent crime.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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  10. #290
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    Re: Taser Use

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    I'm sympathetic to civil disobedience, and of course abhor the use of a taser on a non-violent and pregnant woman.

    However, no one is above the law and her pregnancy changes nothing. All it does is break our hearts a little and demonize the police, and I know she won the case, but TBH would we even be talking about this person if she was not pregnant, or female?

    You should behave in a manner that if everyone did, everything would work out. Last I checked pregnancy gets your ALOT of consideration in America, but not special treatment under the law. I cant get pregnant, so I'll be damned if I'll support a person who thinks their condition grants them rights that are denied to me. I'd love to be able to tell all traffic police to piss off, but since society wouldn't work out so well if everyone did so.. Ignorance of the law, being female, or being pregnant is no excuse for noncompliance.

    I don't think they should have used a taser, but I also don't know how they should have proceeded. Law enforcement is a difficult and thankless job that, much like the military, you hear more about their mistakes than their positive encounters.
    Pretty much my point in a nutshell. Civil disobedience to me though isn't giving **** to a police officer because you didn't feel like paying for a ticket, to me it's more holding up a sign, boycotting, protesting(even the ones that annoy me) peacefully, and the masterful tactics of the civil rights movement under Dr. King like the sit ins, and other non-violent, non-aggressive protests. The minute though that a protest gets aggressive don't be surprised when the officers fight back.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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