View Poll Results: Is using a taser to arrest a noncoperative but nonviolent person "excessive force"

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  • Yes, always

    15 26.79%
  • Depends, sometimes yes, sometimes no

    26 46.43%
  • No, tasers are acceptable if a person is not cooperating

    13 23.21%
  • Don't know

    2 3.57%
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Thread: Taser Use

  1. #211
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    Re: Taser Use

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathematician View Post
    I certainly don't care who does and doesn't like the cops. Some people don't like them simply because they disagree with certain laws and want to be disobedient.
    obey obey obey. I'm sensing a trend here.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Taser Use

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    obey obey obey. I'm sensing a trend here.
    “Obedience indeed is only the pitiful and cowardly egotism of him who thinks that he can do something better than reason” Percy Shelley
    Libertarian and Atheist...wow I'm a hated man.

  3. #213
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    Re: Taser Use

    We're seeing more and more videos of police using excessive force on helpless suspects that they THINK are resisting, some resulting in permanent injury and death. The training on how to handle suspects should be more about how to reasonably subdue and control resistance than to use sheer brute force. Tasers are an extremely painful solution though effective in causing little lasting damage, they shouldn't be used on non violent resistance, unless as a last resort in certain potentially dangerous situations. Unlawful compliance can be ticketed heavily with other methods implemented such as a quick acting narcotic/anesthesia mist that turns the suspect to jelly.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  4. #214
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    Re: Taser Use

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    We're seeing more and more videos of police using excessive force on helpless suspects that they THINK are resisting, some resulting in permanent injury and death. The training on how to handle suspects should be more about how to reasonably subdue and control resistance than to use sheer brute force. Tasers are an extremely painful solution though effective in causing little lasting damage, they shouldn't be used on non violent resistance, unless as a last resort in certain potentially dangerous situations. Unlawful compliance can be ticketed heavily with other methods implemented such as a quick acting narcotic/anesthesia mist that turns the suspect to jelly.
    I somewhat agree, but in the instant that a situation escalates the thought processes change. Realistically when an officer issues a legal command it is best to follow it, of course if something is not a legal police action the situation changes but one must realize that an officer has many means at his disposal to subdue you.

    That said, the cooler head almost always prevails in a heated situation and the woman in the OP certainly didn't keep control. If I were an LEO and someone was using aggressive words and actions and actively resisting I couldn't say what I would do, especially considering this woman was pregnant but I can say that I would tase before using other force, the reason being standard locks and takedowns could exert more force on the fetus, a police baton or mag light can cause severe trauma, and there is no telling if a reaction to OC could cause her to go into premature labor or endanger her pregnancy. These officers were in a true no-win situation created by the suspect. I do feel for both parties but understand that police officers must do what they can to maintain control of the situation.

    I guess the musings by a few here that non-violent conflict resolution should be a larger part of police training and taught more thouroughly has merit, but in the instant it fails the most important thing is just restoring control. That said I have run into police officers who were masters of non-violent and non-aggressive enforcement who also had to use aggression against out of control perps in some heated situations, many times the person being detained has a choice of how the stop will go down.
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  5. #215
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    Re: Taser Use

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    Based on my experience as a policeman I know you are wrong.


    Can you give you experiences where you personally could not rely upon the police to save your life.
    My question to you was, "Can you give you experiences where you personally could not rely upon the police to save your life."

    You answer is below. Totally unresponsive and quite frankly, way out of any reality we were speaking about. Teleport?, Physics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Based on my experience with physics, I know you cannot teleport. I mean, if you could be there to "protect" everyone, why are there murders? Why is there rape? Why is there theft? I mean, come on you can be right there at that time, yes? Or is it that it actually takes transfer of information first and foremost to alert the police and then there is a necessary time lag until they get there? Hmm? Maybe? Possibly? That or cops can break the laws of physics, and if so I'd like to know. How do you get around the whole physics thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I'm talking out of my ass
    That is quite an accomplishment....

    I know this is off topic, but, I am in a Barbershop Quartet and we want to add a fifth person. My motto is: "If you can talk, you can sing" we need you and your wonderful talent.

    I am taking the liberty of giving you a verse of "Danny Boy" hoping that you will join us. We wear lime green sports jackets with matching pants. In your case as you will be doing a solo, you need not wear the pants when performing.



    Danny Boy

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    Here is the beautiful tune...performed by James Galway


  6. #216
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    Re: Taser Use

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    You answer is below. Totally unresponsive and quite frankly, way out of any reality we were speaking about. Teleport?, Physics?
    Not at all, it in fact speaks to the heart of the matter. If someone pulls a gun and I really need the cops, you cannot be there when I need you most. I can call you for clean up duty, report a crime. But rarely would you STOP the crime itself less you happened to be on site at the time the crime was committed. Information cannot be conveyed quickly enough and you cannot travel fast enough to make the scene in all cases. If the police were truly able to be there whenever one needed them, we wouldn't see as much crime as we do.

    In the end, it's best to rely on yourself for your own protection. When you need the cops the most, they're 10 minutes away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Connery View Post
    I know this is off topic, but, I am in a Barbershop Quartet and we want to add a fifth person. My motto is: "If you can talk, you can sing" we need you and your wonderful talent.

    I am taking the liberty of giving you a verse of "Danny Boy" hoping that you will join us.
    No thanks, I'm not gay.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  7. #217
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    Re: Taser Use

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I somewhat agree, but in the instant that a situation escalates the thought processes change. Realistically when an officer issues a legal command it is best to follow it, of course if something is not a legal police action the situation changes but one must realize that an officer has many means at his disposal to subdue you.

    That said, the cooler head almost always prevails in a heated situation and the woman in the OP certainly didn't keep control. If I were an LEO and someone was using aggressive words and actions and actively resisting I couldn't say what I would do, especially considering this woman was pregnant but I can say that I would tase before using other force, the reason being standard locks and takedowns could exert more force on the fetus, a police baton or mag light can cause severe trauma, and there is no telling if a reaction to OC could cause her to go into premature labor or endanger her pregnancy. These officers were in a true no-win situation created by the suspect. I do feel for both parties but understand that police officers must do what they can to maintain control of the situation.

    I guess the musings by a few here that non-violent conflict resolution should be a larger part of police training and taught more thouroughly has merit, but in the instant it fails the most important thing is just restoring control. That said I have run into police officers who were masters of non-violent and non-aggressive enforcement who also had to use aggression against out of control perps in some heated situations, many times the person being detained has a choice of how the stop will go down.
    When 50,000+ volts flows thru the woman depending on contact area it can affect the fetus. I'm by no means though saying that a majority of LEO don't do well at a difficult job for low pay.

    Funny thing is we tranquilize animals in an attempt to be humane why not a similar method for humans? When people have become non-compliant to peaceful requests or lawful commands we can assume they are not reasonable and acting like an animal. Sure there would still be injury and deaths as a result because it's simply not avoidable but unless the number were dramatically excessive it would be a more compassionate way to handle resistant suspects. Beating, pounding, bending, tazing, shooting and pepper spraying are not exactly the height of civility. A mist, spray, dart or other penetrable device to deliver a quick acting, potent knock down/out drug. Once they're down/out cuff and shackle. Make sure all officers are trained on resuscitation and have the proper equipment for emergency medical response. Cardio-conversion, O2 and narcan/epinephrine to revive.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  8. #218
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    Re: Taser Use

    This is a no-win for the cops. You can't just let her go. Using the tazer seems excessive. If you try to pull her from the car she will scream "police brutality". Seems the situation was clearly explained to herand she was given multiple opportunities to comply. So what should the cops do?

    Remove her from the car with the minimum use of force required then "cuff and stuff" her. Charge her with "resisting" in addition to the speeding ticket.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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  9. #219
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    Re: Taser Use

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    lpast-
    What I have seen of you in this thread is the typical combination of trite expressions, attempting to lecture civilians and dismissing people, me, who have some expertise on what it takes to handle pregnant women having a meltdown on the side of the road. I have 30 years of running with cops. Been buddies with several for all that time. Is how I got into Instructing and being the arrestee in training future LE. Oh the stories you cops tell during breaks in training... couple that with NTOA videos and my oh my some of the dumb things 'professional' LE do under stress/during a confrontation. The old dodge of "You weren't there" is rapidly running out with the increase of dash cams and mikes on cops. One of my cop buddies is the sheriff of the next county over, he fired a deputy for turning his mike off during a traffic stop.

    Now about the trite everyone hates cops till you need one.

    More to the point is everyone hates a punk cop, even when you need one.

    moving on-

    Tigger it is ignorant to think the only other chioce a cop has if you take the tasers away is to shoot someone.
    It is also ignorant to think tasers will be taken away, but I do think the rules for their use needs to be spelled out in simple, small words because apparently some in LE can't understand bigger ones.

    Again I state for all-

    NO ONE has refuted this- no CERTFIED Instructor for non lethal detention/apprehension teaches it is ok to tase a pregnant woman in the neck.

    Now if she has a death grip on the steering wheel a simple pressure point, and there are several available to the cop, has that death grip off faster than you can type it. (ask me how I know )

    But that takes training, confidence not arrogance, a bit of psychical conditioning- fat boys are handicapped because they can't climb in and use their weight.

    I don't hate cops, just have no love for the punk-a** ones. Some in LE need to be finding other kinds of work.

    Its quite apparent you have far less knowledge and experience as you try and play that you do....what you need to do before you lecture me...is take note of where all the real sarcasm and contriteness started and continued in this thread and I will always dismiss trolls and police haters....and if you really knew anything about the job police do...EVERYONE that needs us loves us as were saving their ass or helping them....they can go home and tell everyone how they hate us to make them happy and we dont give a chit....
    You like many progressives have this thing that not only are you smarter than everyone else your a better cut of human...I got news for you...that opinion is reserved only for individuals like yourself...many others dont share it.
    Just like gay threads where gays dont want to hear a single negative word about gays and what they want...Cop threads are the same...and trust this I dont mind being in the middle of both of them and state what I know and how I feel...see this is america...have a good day
    Last edited by lpast; 05-24-12 at 03:51 PM.

  10. #220
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    Re: Taser Use

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    obey obey obey. I'm sensing a trend here.

    If an officer is actually out of line, the best thing to do is to go along with him on the scene, then call a good lawyer and sue someone's ass off.

    The latter may prove productive; disobedience/resistance at the scene rarely accomplishes anything and will usually take you somewhere you really don't want to go.

    I had a problem with a Trooper one time. I let him have his way at the scene of the stop, then afterward I contacted my State AG. The matter was handled in short order and the young Trooper was told in no uncertain terms that he was WRONG and NOT to do that again.

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