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Taser Use

Is using a taser to arrest a noncoperative but nonviolent person "excessive force"

  • Total voters
    50
Connery said:
I am asking for your actual experience not the various hypothetical situations you pose as answers. Obviously you choose not to respond to the original question. As such you have provided the answer by your conduct and that answer is NO.



....and now you suggest I am gay because I sing...:shock: I also play the flute and several other instruments....:roll:
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The response time in NYC for major crime calls is 4.8 minutes...average for all calls is 7.2 minutes....Major crime calls get priority... reports of robberies, rapes, reports of gunfire, burglary and assault with a weapon....and thats in NYC traffic...yes cops siren and go around...but if anyone has ever been in NYC...much of it is one way streets..one way then the other...if the top of that street is blocked you go nowhere no matter who you are..until you exit the vehicle and have a line of vehicles move first...thats superhuman fast response....

No one even considers that the police can save everyone or be there in time to help everyone...that cant happen anywhere....responses can be anywhere from a few seconds up to the average depending where the car is in their zone...
Everyone knows that police make mistakes....everyone acknowledges there are bad cops...but few will acknowledge the lionshare are good.
Police fully realize there are those that are going to make them wrong no matter what...police know there are those that hate to be given orders or told what to do...they never listened to their mother...we know all that...and we hear it all the time over and over and over and that can make for a contrite response...it never changes its always the same :)
 
LaMidRighter said:
Here's the thing though. Tranquilizers can actually be more dangerous due to varying body chemistries and allergies, voltage effects pretty much everyone medically sound about the same way, I think tranqs would also have endangered the fetus. It's one of those things where unfortunately, at least IMO the woman put her own baby at risk by trying to be tougher than the detaining officer. I'm just of the opinion that this woman put the officer in a no-win situation.
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I'm of course advocating a short acting chemical with minimal side effects. There would be a trial and error period till big pharma perfected a drug. I can't believe with all the surgeries performed every day that there would be that many injuries/deaths comparable to beating or electrocuting people into submission. We don't physically knock people unconscious for an operation because it's safer. If I tased you 4-5 times then tranq'd you, which one do you think you'd prefer? Using a device that delivers the most pain we can invent is not a sign of an enlightened culture.

Officers are often put in no win confrontations because that's their job.
 
grip said:
I'm of course advocating a short acting chemical with minimal side effects. There would be a trial and error period till big pharma perfected a drug. I can't believe with all the surgeries performed every day that there would be that many injuries/deaths comparable to beating or electrocuting people into submission. We don't physically knock people unconscious for an operation because it's safer. If I tased you 4-5 times then tranq'd you, which one do you think you'd prefer? Using a device that delivers the most pain we can invent is not a sign of an enlightened culture.



Officers are often put in no win confrontations because that's their job.
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I dont believe police will ever be allowed to tranquilize people...nor would I want too....there is no easy way out of this for the Police or the public when someone decides to break the law or disobey and the police are put into a situation to force compliance.
Yes and before it starts...I know some go overboard , I know some make bad decisions and I know some are just screwed up tards...we all know that...its a given..
 
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lpast said:
I dont believe police will ever be allowed to tranquilize people...nor would I want too....there is no easy way out of this for the Police or the public when someone decides to break the law or disobey and the police are put into a situation to force compliance.
Yes and before it starts...I know some go overboard , I know some make bad decisions and I know some are just screwed up tards...we all know that...its a given..
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Why not knock'em out chemically? It's more humane, safer than beating them into submission and allows complete compliance for safer restraining for officer and suspect. The only thing better would be Jedi mind tricks.
 
Ikari said:
Personally, I have only been hindered by police, never helped.
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This does not substantiate where the police allowed you to die as your original position clearly states, "Don't rely on them to save your life..."


I was mostly just joking, but you're really not helping your case out here.
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Oh brother...:no:
 
lpast said:
The response time in NYC for major crime calls is 4.8 minutes...average for all calls is 7.2 minutes....Major crime calls get priority... reports of robberies, rapes, reports of gunfire, burglary and assault with a weapon....and thats in NYC traffic...yes cops siren and go around...but if anyone has ever been in NYC...much of it is one way streets..one way then the other...if the top of that street is blocked you go nowhere no matter who you are..until you exit the vehicle and have a line of vehicles move first...thats superhuman fast response....

No one even considers that the police can save everyone or be there in time to help everyone...that cant happen anywhere....responses can be anywhere from a few seconds up to the average depending where the car is in their zone...
Everyone knows that police make mistakes....everyone acknowledges there are bad cops...but few will acknowledge the lionshare are good.
Police fully realize there are those that are going to make them wrong no matter what...police know there are those that hate to be given orders or told what to do...they never listened to their mother...we know all that...and we hear it all the time over and over and over and that can make for a contrite response...it never changes its always the same :)
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NYC is where I pulled duty. I come from a family of LEO's.
 
grip said:
Why not knock'em out chemically? It's more humane, safer than beating them into submission and allows complete compliance for safer restraining for officer and suspect. The only thing better would be Jedi mind tricks.
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I dont think the law would ever allow it....Most prisons dont allow their medical drs to administer shots to convicts being subdued to calm them down anymore...they used to do that routinely because of liability, could you imagine a cop knocking out the wrong citizen...sheesh...and it will happen
 
lpast said:
I dont think the law would ever allow it....Most prisons dont allow their medical drs to administer shots to convicts being subdued to calm them down anymore...they used to do that routinely because of liability, could you imagine a cop knocking out the wrong citizen...sheesh...and it will happen
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Those are legitimate points and concerns but I still think it's a better solution than beating, tasing or shooting. Simply use the current tragedies occurring on the streets, in the courts to change the laws.

A majority of resisters are either whacko or hyped and could use a brief timeout. The chemical could even be something to just paralyze them like curare. It would be in adjunct to current tools not a replacement and would make for quick "tag'em and bag'em". The main problem would be using a potent chemical in combo with already inebriated suspects, so it would have to be a really safe compound.
 
grip said:
I'm of course advocating a short acting chemical with minimal side effects. There would be a trial and error period till big pharma perfected a drug. I can't believe with all the surgeries performed every day that there would be that many injuries/deaths comparable to beating or electrocuting people into submission. We don't physically knock people unconscious for an operation because it's safer. If I tased you 4-5 times then tranq'd you, which one do you think you'd prefer? Using a device that delivers the most pain we can invent is not a sign of an enlightened culture.

Officers are often put in no win confrontations because that's their job.
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You raise a fair point. What I am basically engaged in is the devil's advocate position, realistically though even in a surgery situation the sedatives can have adverse effects leading to complications, bad reactions, or death. Body chemistry is tricky even with a detailed medical history, which I believe makes a general tranquilizer that is 100% non-lethal impossible. Now, without complications I agree I'd rather go to sleep than get tased but none of us have guarantees in either situation. I dunno, to me there was no "good" option when the woman decided to resist the officer, but given that his choices were allow non-compliance, use physical force, shoot, or tase I am of the belief he chose correctly in this situation which ultimately ends up being a judgement call.
 
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Goshin said:
If an officer is actually out of line, the best thing to do is to go along with him on the scene, then call a good lawyer and sue someone's ass off.

The latter may prove productive; disobedience/resistance at the scene rarely accomplishes anything and will usually take you somewhere you really don't want to go.

I had a problem with a Trooper one time. I let him have his way at the scene of the stop, then afterward I contacted my State AG. The matter was handled in short order and the young Trooper was told in no uncertain terms that he was WRONG and NOT to do that again.
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Agreed. Unless the officer is literally endangering your life, I think it's best to cooperate even when they're out of line because the minute you start resisting, especially physically, is the minute you allow the officer to claim that his actions were justified.
 
Is refusing to sign a ticket worth the risk of getting tazed, beaten or arrested for resisting? IMHO, this lady was being an ass and got what was coming to her. The cops showed restraint in giving her multiple opportunities to comply before tazing her.
 
Connery said:
This does not substantiate where the police allowed you to die as your original position clearly states, "Don't rely on them to save your life..."
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Indeed, don't rely on them to save your life. To say that because I haven't been threatened, I can't make that statement is nonsense. There is clear data of people being killed, robbed, raped, etc., all sorts of incidents where the police did not show up in time. It's like saying I can't claim one shouldn't walk off a cliff because I've never done so. But if measurement exists which demonstrates the effects of gravity, then I may use such data to draw proper conclusion. Let's not be obtuse here and feign stupidity.

Connery said:
Oh brother...:no:
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As I said, I was joking. But you play the flute man, may as well lay claim to the clarinette while you're at it. You should have said something a little less feminine, like the trumpet or tenor sax or trombone.
 
Ikari said:
Indeed, don't rely on them to save your life. To say that because I haven't been threatened, I can't make that statement is nonsense. There is clear data of people being killed, robbed, raped, etc., all sorts of incidents where the police did not show up in time. It's like saying I can't claim one shouldn't walk off a cliff because I've never done so. But if measurement exists which demonstrates the effects of gravity, then I may use such data to draw proper conclusion. Let's not be obtuse here and feign stupidity.
.
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agree

I fail to see how saying "don't rely on the cops to save your life" can be equated to "the cops will let you die". plain simple truth is, the cops do the best they can, but there are times when the nearest cop is just too far away for them to reach you in time to keep a perp from killing you. the cops did not purposely let you be killed...there just wasn't anything they could do to stop it. other than hiring millions of cops and having one follow every single person around like a body guard there will be times when you have to depend on yourself
 
OscarB63 said:
agree

I fail to see how saying "don't rely on the cops to save your life" can be equated to "the cops will let you die". plain simple truth is, the cops do the best they can, but there are times when the nearest cop is just too far away for them to reach you in time to keep a perp from killing you. the cops did not purposely let you be killed...there just wasn't anything they could do to stop it. other than hiring millions of cops and having one follow every single person around like a body guard there will be times when you have to depend on yourself
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Exactly! Precognition and teleportation do not exist. There's no way cops are going to always be Johnny on the Spot. It's not to say that cops will let you die, but rather that it is best to rely on yourself for your own protection since you will always be there when you need yourself the most.
 
lpast said:
Ive said since the begining of this thread that this problem arose from a BAD law....there is no need to have altercations over the mere signing of a summons...many jurisidictions have no such law...you write the summons hand it to them and everyone goes on their way.
The point of this incident that eludes all the cop haters...is that this woman was the one speeding...she was the one that kept refusing to sign the ticket and she was the one that refused to exit her vehicle....
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Just to update, this law was changed in the state within a year of this incident occurring. They now do not require people, per state law, to sign a speeding ticket.

Are you required to sign a traffic ticket? | Seattle 911 — A Police and Crime Blog - seattlepi.com

The results of the first trial of this case may have pushed through/caused this change, and that is good.
 
Ikari said:
Then you can tell me how the police will show up the minute I need them, yes? I mean, I'm talking out of my ass, so obviously you can demonstrate your teleportation and precognition. I'd like to see it. You have proof? Or are you the one talking out of your ass?
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I think he is one of the writers of Minority Report... or he thinks that it is real. Not sure which.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
The procedure was implemented so that the ticket serves basically as a court summons and notification of a fine due. Simply signing the ticket, puts you automatically on a personal promise to pay the ticket or to appear in court to contest it. Refusing to sign the ticket is considered the same as a 'failure to appear' in court status, whereby a bench warrant is then issued for your arrest. If you fail to pay the fine or to appear in court then you are found 'guilty' and the fine is increased. Rather than pay court process servers, be forced into the extra paperwork/postage costs for a later notice or even having to rely on your address on the license being up to date, the simple signing of the ticket, at the time it is issued, was deemed to be the most efficient 'confirmation' method that you were properly served.
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I understand all that but it is still not necassary. A Jury Summons arrives in my mail and if I don't appear it is "failure to appear" as well...

and I never signed for the mail. ;)
 
Ikari said:
Indeed, don't rely on them to save your life. To say that because I haven't been threatened, I can't make that statement is nonsense. There is clear data of people being killed, robbed, raped, etc., all sorts of incidents where the police did not show up in time. It's like saying I can't claim one shouldn't walk off a cliff because I've never done so. But if measurement exists which demonstrates the effects of gravity, then I may use such data to draw proper conclusion. Let's not be obtuse here and feign stupidity.
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I asked about your experience as it related to your original position.


You are entitled to express your views. I was simply asking about your experience. You have erected some construct which is outside the parameters of our original discussion which I chose not to get involved with.



As I said, I was joking. But you play the flute man, may as well lay claim to the clarinette while you're at it. You should have said something a little less feminine, like the trumpet or tenor sax or trombone.
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really.........:roll:
 
Bodhisattva said:
I think he is one of the writers of Minority Report... or he thinks that it is real. Not sure which.
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Neither I addressed that poster's original statement and asked him to respond. He decided to veer off into some arcane direction which I am not interested in discussing.
 
Connery said:
Neither I addressed that poster's original statement and asked him to respond. He decided to veer off into some arcane direction which I am not interested in discussing.
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All good man, I am just here for entertainment value...
 
First off, I've been tased before and it's not that bad. Yeah, it sucks at the moment but once it's over, it's over.
Second, I think tasing someone is far more preferable to a physical altercation or pepper spray. The physical altercation could end badly for the cop because there is the possibility that he can't overcome the individual. It most likely would end badly for the individual because we all know cops don't fight fair lol. Pepper spray is the gift that keeps on giving. I've been pepper sprayed as well and it can hurt days later while you are showering. People act like getting tased is some sort of catastrophic event that changes you forever. It's not. At most, you piss yourself, look like an idiot, and hope it never happens again.
 
roguenuke said:
Just to update, this law was changed in the state within a year of this incident occurring. They now do not require people, per state law, to sign a speeding ticket.

Are you required to sign a traffic ticket? | Seattle 911 — A Police and Crime Blog - seattlepi.com



The results of the first trial of this case may have pushed through/caused this change, and that is good.
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Rogue I know that...I posted that 20 pages back...let me repeat what ive said here...The incident would never have taken place if they cops werent sworn to uphold an bad law....after that it was all on her..she categorically refused every thing she was asked to do...so what was left...lets be clear, the police at that point could not and would not say...ok you dont want to do anything we ask..so were screwed now and have to just let you go...doesnt work like that, never will. She had to go and they made her...as unfortunate as that was.
 
lpast said:
Rogue I know that...I posted that 20 pages back...let me repeat what ive said here...The incident would never have taken place if they cops werent sworn to uphold an bad law....after that it was all on her..she categorically refused every thing she was asked to do...so what was left...lets be clear, the police at that point could not and would not say...ok you dont want to do anything we ask..so were screwed now and have to just let you go...doesnt work like that, never will. She had to go and they made her...as unfortunate as that was.
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Moreover, public policy or law cannot be dictated or instantaneously changed based on medical condition or disability, it must go through the legislature.
 
MarineTpartier said:
First off, I've been tased before and it's not that bad. Yeah, it sucks at the moment but once it's over, it's over.
Second, I think tasing someone is far more preferable to a physical altercation or pepper spray. The physical altercation could end badly for the cop because there is the possibility that he can't overcome the individual. It most likely would end badly for the individual because we all know cops don't fight fair lol. Pepper spray is the gift that keeps on giving. I've been pepper sprayed as well and it can hurt days later while you are showering. People act like getting tased is some sort of catastrophic event that changes you forever. It's not. At most, you piss yourself, look like an idiot, and hope it never happens again.
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Pepper spray has blinded people...batons break bones...and when you get 2 or 3 cops swinging batons at someone flailing and kicking its VERY easy and happened often that the baton hits them in a very vulnerable spot that the cop wasnt aiming at and the person moved right into it...like a cheekbone or an eyesocket...Ive said this in 4 or 5 posts here and everyone either blows past it or thinks im just full of it....
Im telling you that batons and pepper spray caused more injuries natural and physical than tasers...tasers are quicker and theres less time for crowd formation...and the subdue much faster which is always a good thing for everyone...but some people have such a mentality towards police nothing is good enough for them...what can i say to that...shrug have fun with the hate..
 
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