View Poll Results: Is there such a thing as anti-white racism?

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Thread: Is there such a thing as anti-white racism?

  1. #231
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    Re: Is there such a thing as anti-white racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by PrometheusBound View Post
    It should be spelled "funding-friendly." As long as it humiliates Whites and discredits their achievement, those who hold economic and political power over the majority will throw money at mud-slinging.
    Lets face it there's a whitist subculture that thoroughly asks for and deserves humiliation at every turn on a daily basis.
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    Re: Is there such a thing as anti-white racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    Absolutely all those who do so...are wrong. Why cater to them? Why unnecessarily concede such ground to the unreasonable?

    If you were posting a thread on geography, would you take a poll on "Is the earth flat?" as if it were a matter of opinion?

    The danger in this is sort of like the false legitimacy which rubs off (at least superficially) on creationists when an actual scientist makes the mistake of agreeing to a "debate" with them; conditioned by memes of fairness and of "hearing 'both sides'" on an issue, many in an audience unconsciously come to treat a completely baseless position as having at least SOME merit where there is none...simply by being put next to or pitted against a substantive position.
    I don't think that talking about it automatically lends legitimacy to a position. On one of the other boards here there's a thread on whether or not we landed on the moon. I think it's an indisputable scientific fact that we did. However, there are conspiracy nuts anyway, and they have some arguments that might sound convincing to someone who doesn't know the facts. I didn't start that thread, but I don't believe that the existence of the thread in any way legitimizes conspiracy nuts.

    The the racism thing, it's also a little different. Those arguing that racism is a white phenomenon are usually splitting hairs over definitions so that only institutional racism counts. Even if we went with that definition (an unreasonable one IMO) there's still institutional racism in Japan against whites and others. We can still find examples of anti-white racism. The idea that racism is a white only thing is thoroughly discredited. I think a lot of people in this thread have done a great job of discrediting it. I don't believe this thread has helped to legitimize it.

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    Re: Is there such a thing as anti-white racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    Lets face it there's a whitist subculture that thoroughly asks for and deserves humiliation at every turn on a daily basis.
    Those who inherit their power are brought up to despise the majority. To soothe their conscience, they have to fantasize evils that make the majority look morally inferior. This gives them free rein to make the majority politically and economically inferior.
    On the outside, trickling down on the insiders.
    We won't live free until the 1% live in fear.
    Hey, richboys! Imagine the boot of democracy stomping on your faces, forever.

  4. #234
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    Re: Is there such a thing as anti-white racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Tick View Post
    I don't think that talking about it automatically lends legitimacy to a position.
    I didn't contend that it did. What I pointed out is that framing a factual matter as if it is a matter of opinion may end up giving unearned credence to a baseless position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Tick View Post
    The the racism thing, it's also a little different. Those arguing that racism is a white phenomenon are usually splitting hairs over definitions so that only institutional racism counts.
    Sounds like a case of multiple counts of sloppy thinking and writing. Some people drop important qualifiers in a phrase or sentence, whether when writing it themselves, or when reading the sentences of others. I run into it all the time. For example, I frequently make the case that overturning white supremacy is the responsibility of "white" people because they are both its beneficiaries as well as its source of maintenance (it makes no sense at all for people of color to seek out or establish white supremacy). White supremacy persists because most "white" people allow it to, by neglect, by active support, or some combination of the two. Institutionalized racism comprises most of what makes up white supremacy, and accounts for most of the damage from it.

    Having said/written all that, there are some sloppy readers/thinkers out there who will -- falsely -- end up reading that and asserting that this amounts to dismissing individual/ideological racism as unimportant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Tick View Post
    Even if we went with that definition (an unreasonable one IMO)
    While if that was the definition someone ACTUALLY worked from, it would be unreasonable...I've met practically no one -- once you dig deeper with some follow-up questions -- who genuinely believes that personal/ideological racism doesn't matter at all. Being recognized as less influential than institutional racism is not the same thing as being dismissed outright as unimportant or (worse yet) nonexistent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Tick View Post
    there's still institutional racism in Japan against whites and others. We can still find examples of anti-white racism. The idea that racism is a white only thing is thoroughly discredited.
    My main point earlier is that the claim for or against the existence and operation of antiwhite racism...is NOT a matter of opinion in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Tick View Post
    I think a lot of people in this thread have done a great job of discrediting it. I don't believe this thread has helped to legitimize it.
    The thread per se hasn't done any significant harm...but I'd argue that framing matters of fact as if they were matters of opinion does real harm. Such a framing looks a whole lot like a thinly veiled emotive appeal where a more straightforward reliance upon facts and empirical definition would suffice (while avoiding the yelling-match game of seeing who can endure a rhetorical pissing contest the longest).

    I remain deeply suspicious of the motivation for creating this thread by starting it with a poll, since -- in about 25 years of working in antiracism circles -- pushing some flavor of the "but there's racism against 'white' people too!" has almost always been part of some larger effort to ignore the fact that racism privileging white folks far outweighs the rare cases of racism working against "whites."

    While we're at it, every once in a long while, governments do something which disproportionately inconveniences rich people...but that's not the usual situation, is it?
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

  5. #235
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    Re: Is there such a thing as anti-white racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    I remain deeply suspicious of the motivation for creating this thread by starting it with a poll, since -- in about 25 years of working in antiracism circles -- pushing some flavor of the "but there's racism against 'white' people too!" has almost always been part of some larger effort to ignore the fact that racism privileging white folks far outweighs the rare cases of racism working against "whites."
    That might be some people's motive, but it's not mine. Racism working against whites is not rare in Hawaii at all. The racism there is blatant and evil. It often results in violence. When kids get assaulted at school for their race, that's not something to take lightly just because the mainland has a lot of racism that benefits whites. The point is racism is ugly and it stinks no matter what race is being attacked.

    You'll never find me justifying racism against blacks or Hispanics or Chinese just because anti-white racism exists.

  6. #236
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    Re: Is there such a thing as anti-white racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Tick View Post
    That might be some people's motive, but it's not mine. Racism working against whites is not rare in Hawaii at all. The racism there is blatant and evil. It often results in violence. When kids get assaulted at school for their race, that's not something to take lightly just because the mainland has a lot of racism that benefits whites. The point is racism is ugly and it stinks no matter what race is being attacked.

    You'll never find me justifying racism against blacks or Hispanics or Chinese just because anti-white racism exists.
    There is indeed plenty of anti-white racism in Hawai'i...on the individual/ideological level. What there is not, however, is racist oppression against "whites" in Hawai'i. This is exactly the kind of risk of losing perspective I'm concerned with.

    If one mentions antiwhite racism in Hawai'i and just leaves it at that, then it is viewed largely as an irrational, bigoted, pathetic form of pathology (which of course IT IS).

    However, if one mentions antiwhite racism in Hawai'i and then includes basic context -- like the fact that white imperialists invaded Hawai'i and took it over through an alliance among businessmen, missionaries, and U.S. military forces, or that Kanaka Maoli are today the poorest and least powerful people in Hawai'i at the bottom of most indices of personal and community health -- then antiwhite racism in Hawai'i is still correctly viewed as pathological and irrational, but the far, far larger systemic problem of racist oppression against nonwhites and against the indigenous population in particular grounds one's understanding of the situation in historical reality. This context actually offers practical directions for possible construction answers to antiwhite racism -- namely, personal and systemic recognition of the imperial/colonial situation -- as opposed to keeping things couched in personal terms (in which case the racism involved -- in any direction -- is falsely confined to notions of personal irrationalities).

    This is NOT to suggest or imply that one must refrain from discussing antiwhite racism in its own right (imposing a presumptive requirement that racist oppression privileging whites must always be mentioned), but instead to point out that antiwhite racism in Hawai'i is not some random bizarre thing which popped into existence out of nowhere...it has a clear historical and reactive cause.

    On a personal note, through my mother's side of the family I am descended from Hawai'ian nobility. Were it not for the U.S. conquest of Hawai'i and the subsequent waves of missionaries and businessmen stealing property and demolishing communities, my mother's side of the family would still hold substantial land in Hawai'i. I look "white" myself and so that's how I get treated, and I've found that when I am in Hawai'i some basic cultural competency goes a long way, but of course one will always encounter at least a few people who just don't get it, or who have lost the ability to distinguish between group and individual. In the larger scheme of things, however, I recognized, and still recognize, that my occasional personal inconvenience as a "white" person in a conquered/occupied colonial state is dwarfed by my privilege there. As De La Rocha of RATM once summarized the colonizer's orientation to the conquered land:

    we'll kill them off
    take their land
    and go their for vacation


    While I'm pretty sure neither of us has personally killed off any native population, any "white" person visiting or living in Hawai'i still has all kinds of political and social privileges nonwhites can only dream of. This doesn't excuse antiwhite racism, but some sense of proportion and humility is definitely called for.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

  7. #237
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    Re: Is there such a thing as anti-white racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    There is indeed plenty of anti-white racism in Hawai'i...on the individual/ideological level. What there is not, however, is racist oppression against "whites" in Hawai'i. This is exactly the kind of risk of losing perspective I'm concerned with.

    If one mentions antiwhite racism in Hawai'i and just leaves it at that, then it is viewed largely as an irrational, bigoted, pathetic form of pathology (which of course IT IS).

    However, if one mentions antiwhite racism in Hawai'i and then includes basic context -- like the fact that white imperialists invaded Hawai'i and took it over through an alliance among businessmen, missionaries, and U.S. military forces, or that Kanaka Maoli are today the poorest and least powerful people in Hawai'i at the bottom of most indices of personal and community health -- then antiwhite racism in Hawai'i is still correctly viewed as pathological and irrational, but the far, far larger systemic problem of racist oppression against nonwhites and against the indigenous population in particular grounds one's understanding of the situation in historical reality. This context actually offers practical directions for possible construction answers to antiwhite racism -- namely, personal and systemic recognition of the imperial/colonial situation -- as opposed to keeping things couched in personal terms (in which case the racism involved -- in any direction -- is falsely confined to notions of personal irrationalities).

    This is NOT to suggest or imply that one must refrain from discussing antiwhite racism in its own right (imposing a presumptive requirement that racist oppression privileging whites must always be mentioned), but instead to point out that antiwhite racism in Hawai'i is not some random bizarre thing which popped into existence out of nowhere...it has a clear historical and reactive cause.

    On a personal note, through my mother's side of the family I am descended from Hawai'ian nobility. Were it not for the U.S. conquest of Hawai'i and the subsequent waves of missionaries and businessmen stealing property and demolishing communities, my mother's side of the family would still hold substantial land in Hawai'i. I look "white" myself and so that's how I get treated, and I've found that when I am in Hawai'i some basic cultural competency goes a long way, but of course one will always encounter at least a few people who just don't get it, or who have lost the ability to distinguish between group and individual. In the larger scheme of things, however, I recognized, and still recognize, that my occasional personal inconvenience as a "white" person in a conquered/occupied colonial state is dwarfed by my privilege there. As De La Rocha of RATM once summarized the colonizer's orientation to the conquered land:

    we'll kill them off
    take their land
    and go their for vacation


    While I'm pretty sure neither of us has personally killed off any native population, any "white" person visiting or living in Hawai'i still has all kinds of political and social privileges nonwhites can only dream of. This doesn't excuse antiwhite racism, but some sense of proportion and humility is definitely called for.
    Are you kidding me? You sound like many others defending native Americans or blacks that pretend that the current (not them) population, based only on race/ethnic origin is responsible for not 'righting' past 'wrongs' done by others. That is racimsm (or prejudice) in its purest form, "if you are not with us, then you are against us" nonsense. Even if my great, great, great...grandfather (you get the picture) did have a tie to these actions it has no bearing on me at all. Get over it, or you will be consumed by it. Those that are content to sit by, ignorant and happy with whatever gov't handouts that they can get, in fact, deserve to be in that position. Go to school, get a job and make a difference! I see many mega-rich, star athletes (or entertainers) that do nothing for their 'roots' yet complain when others do not 'help the hood'.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 05-29-12 at 02:45 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  8. #238
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    Re: Is there such a thing as anti-white racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Are you kidding me?
    I'm dead serious. Unfortunately, you failed to read my post correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    You sound like many others defending native Americans or blacks that pretend that the current (not them) population, based only on race/ethnic origin is responsible for not 'righting' past 'wrongs' done by others.
    You're completely misreading this. I don't call upon myself or anyone else to take responsibility for acts they had no personal part in.

    I DO, however, call upon myself and other "white" people to take responsibility for the unearned privileges they accept RIGHT NOW, TODAY, and the acceptance of stolen and unearned wealth -- both material and social -- they continue to accept possession and use of RIGHT NOW, TODAY. We absolutely can do something about that, and to the extent that we fail to do so (either by ignorance or by complacency), we are rightfully identified as responsible for maintaining the unjust dominant order of white supremacy. TODAY.

    If you can't see or hear that clearly, you will remain incapable of accurately understanding my position, just as algebra seems to be gibberish to someone who doesn't understand the concept of the variable.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Even if my great, great, great...grandfather (you get the picture) did have a tie to these actions it has no bearing on me at all.
    Oh really?!? So absolutely no one in your family passed down their property, their social status, their skills, the legacy of their ability to get a higher education or work in a profession? Not the slightest hint of benefit from their social or work connections? Not the slightest influence from their access to health care, to buying a home, or -- for that matter -- one or more generations of being treated at least somewhat substantively as an individual rather than as an imagined template of their "race", sex, religion, or nationality?

    The incredulity you are expressing speaks to the very heart of white privilege; racist oppression doesn't just systematically harm nonwhites unfairly...it also systematically privileges "white" folk unfairly.

    I completely get that you personally don't intend any special harm to nonwhites...but white privilege doesn't ask permission. Whether you like it or not -- and whether you asked for it or not -- if you are treated as "white" in a context of white supremacy (which IS what we are living under) -- then you ARE privileged. Intention has nothing to do with it. You may choose to accept such privilege without a thought, you may struggle against it mightily, you may use your privilege to expose the privilege itself or not, etc., but no amount or type of intention in its own right will undo that privilege.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Get over it, or you will be consumed by it. Those that are content to sit by, ignorant and happy with whatever gov't handouts that they can get, in fact, deserve to be in that position. Go to school, get a job and make a difference! I see many mega-rich, star athletes (or entertainers) that do nothing for their 'roots' yet complain when others do not 'help the hood'.
    This is incoherent, irrelevant nonsense without even a tangential relationship to the topic.
    Last edited by cmakaioz; 05-29-12 at 03:06 PM.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

  9. #239
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    Re: Is there such a thing as anti-white racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by cmakaioz View Post
    I'm dead serious. Unfortunately, you failed to read my post correctly.



    You're completely misreading this. I don't call upon myself or anyone else to take responsibility for acts they had no personal part in.

    I DO, however, call upon myself and other "white" people to take responsibility for the unearned privileges they accept RIGHT NOW, TODAY, and the acceptance of stolen and unearned wealth -- both material and social -- they continue to accept possession and use of RIGHT NOW, TODAY. We absolutely can do something about that, and to the extent that we fail to do so (either by ignorance or by complacency), we are rightfully identified as responsible for maintaining the unjust dominant order of white supremacy. TODAY.

    If you can't see or hear that clearly, you will remain incapable of accurately understanding my position, just as algebra seems to be gibberish to someone who doesn't understand the concept of the variable.



    Oh really?!? So absolutely no one in your family passed down their property, their social status, their skills, the legacy of their ability to get a higher education or work in a profession? Not the slightest hint of benefit from their social or work connections? Not the slightest influence from their access to health care, to buying a home, or -- for that matter -- one or more generations of being treated at least somewhat substantively as an individual rather than as an imagined template of their "race", sex, religion, or nationality?

    The incredulity you are expressing speaks to the very heart of white privilege; racist oppression doesn't just systematically harm nonwhites unfairly...it also systematically privileges "white" folk unfairly.

    I completely get that you personally don't intend any special harm to nonwhites...but white privilege doesn't ask permission. Whether you like it or not -- and whether you asked for it or not -- if you are treated as "white" in a context of white supremacy (which IS what we are living under) -- then you ARE privileged. Intention has nothing to do with it. You may choose to accept such privilege without a thought, you may struggle against it mightily, you may use your privilege to expose the privilege itself or not, etc., but no amount or type of intention in its own right will undo that privilege.



    This is incoherent, irrelevant nonsense without even a tangential relationship to the topic.
    Neither my father nor my mother inherited any such 'privileges', except your imagined privilege of being born poor and white. My father was born in 1922 and lived poor near Omaha, NE until he dropped out of school and joined the U.S. army, later fought in WWII, Korea and Vietnam, my mother was born in 1919 and lived poor in San Antonio, TX, until the death of her father (she was then age 9), then shipped off to live with an aunt in FL, eventually worked as filing/typing clerk in DC war office during WWII. My parents met in 1950, near DC, married and had three children, we then moved around the world and country a bit, as service families do. My parents inherited no money or property at all, as I am unlikey too either. What little they have, they have earned, have harmed no one in the process, have served their country well and owe no such debt as a result, nor do I. If you feel guilty, then perhaps you are. I feel no guilt or debt for any past sins, real or imagined, of others before me in my family.
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 05-29-12 at 03:48 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  10. #240
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    Re: Is there such a thing as anti-white racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Neither my father nor my mother inherited any such 'privileges', except your imagined privilege of being born poor and white.
    Being poor and "white" is a demonstrably, consistently better situation than being poor and nonwhite. White privilege doesn't mean "white" folk are immune to mistreatment or oppression on OTHER axes through OTHER aspects of their identity. Rather, it means that holding other things equal, "white" people are better off than nonwhites.

    You continue to respond to stances I don't hold, suggestions I haven't made, etc., instead of what I've actually posted.

    Being the target of class oppression doesn't make privilege on another axis ("race") magically go away. This isn't about FEELING oppressed or FEELING privileged, but about the factual, concrete conditions.

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    [a bunch of irrelevant filler omitted...]

    I feel no guilt or debt for any past sins, real or imagined, of others before me in my family.
    Call back when you decide to read what's actually in front of you. I never suggested that you -- or anyone -- should feel guilty about or try to fix what they have no hand in. In fact, if/when you actually read my post correctly, you'll discover that I explicitly stated as much, and directed my attention to the present tense.

    Have a nice life.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

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