View Poll Results: Texas secession?

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  • Anytime they want

    69 60.00%
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    2 1.74%
  • No way

    41 35.65%
  • I don't know

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    3 2.61%
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Thread: Texas secession?

  1. #741
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    For the life of me, I can't see how anyone can make the moral case for preventing secession. If a minority wish to separate from the larger political structure and create their own political unit in which they exercise self-government, then what moral justification could anyone have for saying they can't do so. Preventing a minority from exercising its right to self-government seems to be driven by simple greed: "We own you, and we own the land upon which your homes are built. We will not let you govern yourself, because for you to escape our rule would mean that you are stealing from us."
    Perhaps you could speak to some of the practical issues that you yourself have introduced into the discussion.

    For the purposes of discussion, let us say that there would be a mechanism to permit a state to leave the union an be on their own. And let us assume that Texas would be that state.

    What happens to the federal land and buildings and workers in Texas?

    What happens to the share of the national debt that Texans owe?

    What happens to Texans and Social Security and Medicare?

    What happens to Texas and border issues - not just with Mexico but with the USA as well?

    What happens to citizens of Texas who still want to be part of the USA?

    What happens to citizens of the other 49 states who now want to move to Texas and their Social Security and Medicare and share of the debt?
    Last edited by haymarket; 05-26-12 at 09:40 AM.
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  2. #742
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Perhaps you could speak to some of the practical issues that you yourself have introduced into the discussion.

    For the purposes of discussion, let us say that there would be a mechanism to permit a state to leave the union an be on their own. And let us assume that Texas would be that state.

    What happens to the federal land and buildings and workers in Texas?
    Workers lose their jobs or get picked up by the new government.
    Federal land gets returned to the state.
    Federal buildings go with it.
    Or the land could be bought back.


    What happens to the share of the national debt that Texans owe?
    It doesn't get paid by Texans or they make it part of their constitution to respect the debt.

    What happens to Texans and Social Security and Medicare?
    They don't get it.

    What happens to Texas and border issues - not just with Mexico but with the USA as well?
    They handle it or fail.

    What happens to citizens of Texas who still want to be part of the USA?
    They move or stay.

    What happens to citizens of the other 49 states who now want to move to Texas and their Social Security and Medicare and share of the debt?
    They can move in or not move in.

  3. #743
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Workers lose their jobs or get picked up by the new government.
    Federal land gets returned to the state.
    Federal buildings go with it.
    Or the land could be bought back.




    It doesn't get paid by Texans or they make it part of their constitution to respect the debt.



    They don't get it.



    They handle it or fail.



    They move or stay.



    They can move in or not move in.
    So you get all the Federal buildings and land, and none of the debt. Brilliant! We should all just secede, then the debt disappears! I'm sure the Chinese will understand.

    How about the Nuclear weapons? Do we just created a new nuclear power right next to us? Is Texas still part of NATO? Which treaty obligations entered into by the United States as a whole apply to Texas?

    If you were born in Texas and now live in another state, is your citizenship revoked? Does that mean that they can't ever run for President again?


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

  4. #744
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    So you get all the Federal buildings and land, and none of the debt. Brilliant! We should all just secede, then the debt disappears! I'm sure the Chinese will understand.

    How about the Nuclear weapons? Do we just created a new nuclear power right next to us? Is Texas still part of NATO? Which treaty obligations entered into by the United States as a whole apply to Texas?

    If you were born in Texas and now live in another state, is your citizenship revoked? Does that mean that they can't ever run for President again?
    We should all have the freedom to seced. As to the debt and Chinese, should have thought about that before they make it so that a state wants to secede.

    How about em? No, Texas would not be a part of Nato at point of secession. No treaty obligations would apply because we would no longer be part of US.

    Get a passport. Get a green card.

    Quantrill

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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantrill View Post

    For one the U.S. government allowed John Brown to roam free in the North while he planned his attack upon the South. John Brown was funded by the secret six, wealthy prominent men of the North. They were accessory to the terroristic plot of Brown. They were found out? What happened to them? Nothing. Why? Because the U.S government agreed with their efforts.
    Why would John Brown be a problem? Since the South didn't secede to preserve slavery, John Brown freeing the slaves should be fine. After all, there's no need to preserve slavery...

    By the way, until he started committing crimes, it would have been wrong to imprison him, don't you think?

    Though slavery was protected by the Constitution, the North constantly tried to undermine the Souths right to slavery. A right protected by the Constitution.
    You still have yet to show where the "right to own other human beings" is enshrined in the Constitution. Nowhere in the Constitution did it say that slavery could never be made illegal.

    As Jefferson Davis declared " It was not the passage of the 'personal liberty laws, it was not the circulation of incendiary documents, it was not the raid of John Brown, it was not the operation of unjust and unequal tarriff laws, nor all combined, that constituted the intolerable grievance, but it was the systematic and persistent struggle to deprive the Southern states of equality in the Union---generally to discriminate in legislation against the interest of their people; culminating in their exclusion from the territories, the common property of the states, as well as by the infraction of thier compact to promote domestic tranquillilty."
    Jefferson Davis? The man whose memoirs said that slavery had nothing to do with the Confederacy. Even though Stephens declared it the "Cornerstone" upon which the nation was built. If you're looking for revisionist history, look no further. Didn't even take long.

    [/QUOTE]


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

  6. #746
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    So you get all the Federal buildings and land, and none of the debt. Brilliant! We should all just secede, then the debt disappears! I'm sure the Chinese will understand.
    If a state is leaving the union they have no obligation to respect the debt of the country they are leaving. China can suck it.

    If a country is leaving and their federal land on their property and it either be bought or given to the state. I made no mistake.

    How about the Nuclear weapons? Do we just created a new nuclear power right next to us? Is Texas still part of NATO? Which treaty obligations entered into by the United States as a whole apply to Texas?
    Texas is not part of NATO if they leave the union unless they decide to then join Nato as their own country. No treaty obligations would apply to Texas made by the United States if they left the union.

    Nuclear weapons would most likely be returned to the federal government.

    If you were born in Texas and now live in another state, is your citizenship revoked? Does that mean that they can't ever run for President again?
    That makes no sense. They are citizens of the United States and if they live in another state they naturally would not lose it.
    Last edited by Henrin; 05-26-12 at 11:03 AM.

  7. #747
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Perhaps you could speak to some of the practical issues that you yourself have introduced into the discussion.

    For the purposes of discussion, let us say that there would be a mechanism to permit a state to leave the union an be on their own. And let us assume that Texas would be that state.

    What happens to the federal land and buildings and workers in Texas?
    A couple of options: They could remain federal property indefinitely. Or they could remain federal property for a specific period of time, after which they would revert to being owned by texas. They could immediately be made texas property (not a very friendly option, in my opinion). Or they could be purchased. Leaving them as property of the US might be a good option, as they would then provide a good source of tax revenue for texas.

    What happens to the share of the national debt that Texans owe?
    If I were them, I would do something like this. Since they are appx. 7% of the US population, they owe about 7% of the national debt. They should take on roughly 7% of this debt, relieving the US gov't of paying this amount. Essentially, 7% of the debt would transfer as an obligation to Texas.

    What happens to Texans and Social Security and Medicare?
    Those Texans who renounced their US citizenship and become citizens of Texas would no longer be entitled to these benefits. Those who chose to remain US citizens and reside in Texas as visitors would still be entitled to their benefits.

    What happens to Texas and border issues - not just with Mexico but with the USA as well?
    The border between Mexico, US, and Texas would be an international border, like the current border between the US and Canada and the US and Mexico.

    What happens to citizens of Texas who still want to be part of the USA?
    They could remain in Texas as visiting US citizens, or they could emigrate to the US.

    What happens to citizens of the other 49 states who now want to move to Texas and their Social Security and Medicare and share of the debt?
    I suppose it would be the same as a US citizen moving to any other foreign nation. They could either live in that foreign nation as a visitor, remaining a citizen of the US, or they could become a citizen of that foreign nation and renounce their US citizenship. After that, the would not longer be entitled to the benefits of being a US citizen, such as social security and medicare.

  8. #748
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Workers lose their jobs or get picked up by the new government.
    Federal land gets returned to the state.
    Federal buildings go with it.
    Or the land could be bought back.




    It doesn't get paid by Texans or they make it part of their constitution to respect the debt.



    They don't get it.



    They handle it or fail.



    They move or stay.



    They can move in or not move in.
    You are advocating outright theft from the American people.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantrill View Post
    We should all have the freedom to seced. As to the debt and Chinese, should have thought about that before they make it so that a state wants to secede.
    Maybe so, but you can't undo that doodle.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

  10. #750
    Educator Quantrill's Avatar
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Why would John Brown be a problem? Since the South didn't secede to preserve slavery, John Brown freeing the slaves should be fine. After all, there's no need to preserve slavery...

    By the way, until he started committing crimes, it would have been wrong to imprison him, don't you think?



    You still have yet to show where the "right to own other human beings" is enshrined in the Constitution. Nowhere in the Constitution did it say that slavery could never be made illegal.



    Jefferson Davis? The man whose memoirs said that slavery had nothing to do with the Confederacy. Even though Stephens declared it the "Cornerstone" upon which the nation was built. If you're looking for revisionist history, look no further. Didn't even take long.
    [/QUOTE]

    John Brown was a problem because he was supported by Northern money men who were in turn supported by the US govt. He is a classic example of the North refusing to allow the South the right to their slavery as protected by the Constitution. If slavery is threatned, then those threatning it are the lawbreakers. The North, and John Brown, and his secret six. So, no need to secede to protect slavery. There is a need to secede to protect yourself from the violaters of the Constitution who don't treat you as one protected under the Constitution.

    John Brown was already a murderer. Should have been hanged already. Allowed to roam the north and get support for his Harpers ferry raid instead. No big deal, it is just the Southernors that are being attacked.

    Its called 'source material'. Just because you don't like Jeff Davis doesn't mean he isn't correct in his statements. And who would know more about why the South sececded than Jeff Davis? Let me guess, the yankees. Oh yeah. The yankee always thinks he knows why the Southernor does anything. Just ask em.

    Quantrill

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