View Poll Results: Texas secession?

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  • Anytime they want

    69 60.00%
  • Bad times only

    2 1.74%
  • No way

    41 35.65%
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    3 2.61%
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Thread: Texas secession?

  1. #721
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Actually, it was returned to the people who attended conventions in the states for ratification.

    That reality destroys your whole premise that somehow THE STATES are these independent self sufficient god-like entities apart from the people who actually did the voting for ratification.
    Now if that's what I had actually said, then you might actually have a point.

    A state is simply the term we use for the duly elected representatives of a sovereign people. It is nothing more than the people that make it up. It has not physical reality.

    So the constitution was ratified on a state-by-state basis. The people of each state chose whether to join the compact. We all know this. What's your point?

  2. #722
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    Re: Texas secession?

    God, are people who believe that Texas can secede from the Union eating massive numbers of bowls of Moron Flakes for breakfast everyday?

  3. #723
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    I still disagree with your contention that the colonies never became free, sovereign, and independent states. It appears that they considered themselves to be free and independent.

    We've already seen that at the end of the revolutionary war they signed a treaty that proclaimed them to be free and independent states.

    Also, the articles of confederation proclaim them to be free and independent states.

    Finally, we have the declaration of independence itself:
    We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.[emphasis added]
    Then why did they bother to use the term "United Colonies" instead of just "Colonies"? IF what you say is try then "Colonies" would have been just as accurate and could not have been mistaken for anything else. Instead they chose to use "United Colonies" at the beginning of all that.

    Again, I think you're confusing States (plural) with States as used in United States.
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  4. #724
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Then why did they bother to use the term "United Colonies" instead of just "Colonies"?
    Perhaps because they intended to fight, united as allies, against Britain.

    IF what you say is try then "Colonies" would have been just as accurate and could not have been mistaken for anything else. Instead they chose to use "United Colonies" at the beginning of all that.

    Again, I think you're confusing States (plural) with States as used in United States.
    We declare that these united colonies are free and independent states.

    That doesn't sound confusing. The colonies are free and independent states. That's what I've been saying all along.

  5. #725
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantrill View Post
    The land was South Carolinas. The Fed. govt was given use of the land for whatever reasons and whatever conditions. When a state secedes, she is no longer part of the Union. The Fed. govt. leaves. Its tresspassing.

    Quantrill
    Okay, lets looks at this logically....

    South Carolina signed a compact with the US government called a Constitution. The Constitution is a contract between the people who inhabit each state and the collective states as a whole aka union, republic, nation.

    The land for the building of Fort Sumter was ceded to the US government by S. Carolina in 1838. It was a legal contract between two sovereign governments, the state and the federal, which gave the federal government exclusive rights over the property "provided" that S. Carolina would still have jurisdiction to serve summons and supeonas on the federal property.

    Are we in agreement so far?

    Twenty two later in 1861, and after great expense and effort to bring in landfill and material to build the island and the fort, which was still under construction, South Carolina decides to reneg on it's compact with the union, and reneg on it's contract that ceded property to the US government.

    Are we in agreement so far?

    So after S. Carolina renegs on two legal contracts you think the US government had no right to stay on Fort Sumter? Do you really believe that two binding legal contracts were null and void without the US governments consent, especially ones that they were party to? There were two legal entities that signed binding legal contracts and just because one side decides they don't like the terms years after the fact does not make those contracts automatically null and void. In fact if you think about it, the purpose of signing of legal contracts is to protect both parties from one side arbitrarily renegging on the agreement. No sir, the US government had a binding legal claim to Fort Sumter no matter how much of a hissy fit S. Carolina threw.

    I really don't expect you to be in agreement at this point because this same exact arguement has been going on since 1861 (see Lincoln's last speech) and no amount of reason or legaleze is going to convince you otherwise because you are obviously very vested in your version of the truth. But at least we seem to be in agreement that the Civil War put an end to the states right to secede.....aren't we?
    Last edited by Moot; 05-25-12 at 07:12 PM.

  6. #726
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by JuanBatista View Post
    Nope, every one of them that volunteered to take up arms vs the lawful govt was a traitor. Many CSA soldiers were draftees, and the CSA army had a desertion rate more than double the US Army.

    But the officers and officials of the CSA should have been executed as traitors. The US was far too soft on them, only executing a single CSA officer for war crimes.
    Yep, every Southernor was an American Patriot. It wasn't us who was treating the Constitution as a document from hell.

    No CSA officer was guilty of war crimes.

    Quantrill

  7. #727
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by JuanBatista View Post
    Oh yeah, you didn't lose the war. You weren't even alive yet.

    And every one of my statements was backed by fact. Yours are delusion. I do this for a living as a history professor, demolish neo Confederate delusions.
    I haven't seen any facts yet.

    Sure you do. Glad you told me. I suggest finding another job. Or maybe not. Proabably the ones who listen to you don't do their own research.

    Quantrill

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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by JuanBatista View Post
    Because the constitution could be amended. Did you never take a govt class in your life? Did you sleep thru every history class that ever talked about why the slave owners always wanted an equal number of slave and free states? To block any const amendments.

    And again, the slave owning elite is not the south.

    For that matter, not even those elites would anything to do with someone named Quantrill. The man was a butcher who mass murdered civilians, a bandit posing as a soldier.
    The South didn't have any concerns over ammending the Constitution. Because the North would not have the votes.

    So, you didn't answer the question. And you call yourself a teacher? Pay attention please. If slavery was protected by the Constitution, then why should the South secede to preserve slavery?

    Quantrill

  9. #729
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by JuanBatista View Post
    Most Texans don't want any such "help." We'd kick the tails of the secessionists if they ever made a serious effort.
    Sure, we seen that picture before. Remember the Alamo.

    Quantrill

  10. #730
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggen View Post
    Every history written by every reputable historian ever to write about the Civil War.

    Hint: When you get your history from websites with the Confederate Flag at the top, it's likely not to be too accurate.
    Ok, well give the reference of the reputible source.

    Quantrill

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