View Poll Results: Texas secession?

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Thread: Texas secession?

  1. #491
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Too bad for your argument that they gave up much of that sovereignty to join the larger unit of the USA.
    I think you hit the nail on the head. The states gave up "some" sovereignty but not all. Sovereignty is divisible and in order to form a union or a compact, the states divided their sovereignty with the newly created US government. Both have equal sovereignty and by this I mean the federal government has sovereignty to deal with external threats and the states have sovereignty to deal with internal threats.

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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post

    Do you have a source for this claim that the North entered the war to destroy the South?
    Here is one of the sources that support my opinion.

    From "Miracle at Philadelphia" , Catherine Drinker Bowen, P.176-177

    "The Convention had early agreed that in the original states every forty thousand inhabitants were entitled to one representative in the lower house. But with the new rage for Western emigration this suddenly became dangerous....Soon there might be as many Western states as Eastern....Massachusetts came out against admitting the West on equal terms. Elbridge Gerry's republican principles frequently clashed with his interests as a New England merchant; he expressed himsef as convinced the over-mountain states would before long be more thickly populated than the Nordthern. They would abuse their power, 'drain our wealth into the Western country.' To guard against it, Gerry wished to see the Constitution limit the admission of new states ' in such a manner that they should never be able to outnumber the Atlantic states.'

    Quantrill
    Last edited by Quantrill; 05-22-12 at 06:47 AM.

  3. #493
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Would you please now explain how you think that quote proves that the North entered the war to destroy the South?
    __________________________________________________ _
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post

    Do you have a source for this claim that the North entered the war to destroy the South?
    Here is another source. A quote from Samuel White of Delaware from a speech delievered to the Senate on Nov. 2, 1803 concerning the Louisiana Purchase. Anals of America, Encyclopedia Britanica, p.175

    " Louisiana must and will become settled if we hold it, and with the very population that would otherwise occuppy part of our present territory. Thus our citizens will be removed to the immense distance of 2,000 or 3,000 miles from the capital of the Union...their affections will become alilenated; they will gradually begin to view us as strangers; they will form other commercial connections; and our interests will become distinct.

    "These, with other causes that human wisdom may not now forsee, will in time effect a separation, and I fear our bounds will be fixed nearer to our houses than the waters of the Mississippi. "

    So, as you can see, from the very begining the New England States were concerned over losing power and wealth and control over the new government. And it is for these very reasons that I believe the power in the North had made the determination that it simply must conquer the South in order to protect this power and interests. Slavery was an issue that was there and could be used against the South later.

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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You are not honest when you frame this as states entering into a compact with each other. You are forgetting a very important other entity to which they joined with and agreed to the terms of the Constitution in doing so. And in doing so they gave up some of their own powers, their own authority and their own sovereignity.

    It was either that or lose the USA.

    They made the wise choice.
    So you don't actually have any evidence that the states gave up their sovereignty.

    As TNAR has already pointed out, the states were and are sovereign political societies. They entered into a voluntary compact, creating the federal government as their agent to exercise certain specific delegated powers. That compact has no specific term, and under international law, when countries enter into a treaty with no specific term it is understood that they may exit the treaty when they wish.

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    Re: Texas secession??

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    Howdy,

    Let's assume times get tough, the US dollar crashes or something of that magnitude. Would you mind Texas secession if they choose to?

    Hey,

    How about instead we assume that times get tough, the US dollar crashes (or something of that magnitude). Would anyone mind if we simply cut Texas loose?

    Later dudes!

    We've got people to worry about who actually care about these United States!!
    Last edited by Taylor; 05-22-12 at 07:15 AM.

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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    I think you hit the nail on the head. The states gave up "some" sovereignty but not all. Sovereignty is divisible and in order to form a union or a compact, the states divided their sovereignty with the newly created US government. Both have equal sovereignty and by this I mean the federal government has sovereignty to deal with external threats and the states have sovereignty to deal with internal threats.
    When a country enters into a treaty, does it give up sovereignty, or merely delegate some responsibility to the created agent. Does Denmark lose sovereignty when it joins NATO?

    It's more correct, I think, to say that the federal government has been delegated the responsibility to deal with external threats, not that it has sovereignty. Agents don't have sovereignty over principals. It is the principals who create and have total control over their agent.

  8. #498
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    When a country enters into a treaty, does it give up sovereignty, or merely delegate some responsibility to the created agent. Does Denmark lose sovereignty when it joins NATO?
    Yes. Nations trade some of their sovereignty all the time. For instance, the EU countries are all soveriegn nations but they traded their soveriegnty to mint their own coin to join the EU compact. They all use the euro now but they are still sovereign nations.

    It's more correct, I think, to say that the federal government has been delegated the responsibility to deal with external threats, not that it has sovereignty. Agents don't have sovereignty over principals. It is the principals who create and have total control over their agent.
    Giving the federal government sovereignty to deal with external threats was one of the main reasons for forming a union because the states knew they couldn't do it on their own. The states give up some of their soveriegnty everytime they accept funding from the federal government because the funding always comes with terms that take away some of the states sovereignty.

    Another example of the divisibility of sovereignty might be where the people who lived in Kentucky wanted to secceed from Virginia to form a new state. The people of Virginia agreed and Kentucky got state sovereignty. Now we have two sovereign states where once there was one and it didn't dimish the full soveriegnty of Virginia at all.

    Ours is a very unique form of government where we have a sovereign federal government that is separate from the sovereign states that form the union. Even the EU doesn't have a sovereign central political government. The US is the only government that I can think of that is like this.
    Last edited by Moot; 05-22-12 at 08:17 AM.

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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantrill View Post
    The supreriority of the anglo-saxon over the negroe was held by both North and South. Including Lincoln.
    To a lesser extent certainly, but that still doesnt negate the fact that the South seceeded and fought a war, by their own admission, to preserve slavery.

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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    So you don't actually have any evidence that the states gave up their sovereignty.
    As a long time teacher and molder of young minds, I found it an excellent strategy to allow people to research and find the answer themselves and they retained that information much much longer than when spoon fed it. I would urge you to do this -

    take the powers each state had in the first few years of the USA under the Articles of Confederation. Then take the powers of the states as adopted in the US Constitution. Compare the two. The differences should be stark and obvious.

    Then flip the coin. Look at the powers of the national government under the Articles and then compare them to those that emerged in the national government after the Constitution was adopted.

    Then ask yourself a very simple question: what changed between those early days of the USA and the current powers that states have?

    I believe the answer will be staring you right in the face.

    This will help

    http://www.barefootsworld.net/aoc1777.html

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_of_Confederation

    http://www.constitutionfacts.com/us-...confederation/

    http://americanhistory.about.com/od/...tion_fails.htm

    http://owenshistory.info/Powerpoints...federation.pdf

    Are you taking the position that what you call international law is superior in authority to the US Constitution?
    Last edited by haymarket; 05-22-12 at 09:11 AM.
    __________________________________________________ _
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