View Poll Results: Texas secession?

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  • Anytime they want

    69 60.00%
  • Bad times only

    2 1.74%
  • No way

    41 35.65%
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    0 0%
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    3 2.61%
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Thread: Texas secession?

  1. #161
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by RadicalModerate View Post
    Goshin, I don't really need to explain federalism to you, do I?

    All states are loyal to the US Constitution and are under it's jurisdiction; it's written in to the State Constitutions.

    I'm not talking about a legal justification, I'm talking about a moral one.

    Why does the will of those who don't live in the state, trump the will of those who DO live there, to be an independent nation instead of subject to the whims of others living 1500 miles away?

    I'm looking for a good argument, based in moral/ethical or principled values, that says why the people of a state (especially one that used to be its own country), can't decide that they want their land to be an independent land. I'd be genuinely interested to hear one, because I'm having trouble thinking one up myself.

    If the US could seceed from the UK, why can't Texas seceed from the US?

    If the fundamental concept of private property is that you take what's there and mix your labor with it, and take ownership of the product thereby.... how can anyone who doesn't live in Texas claim the right to overrule the will of those who DO live in Texas?

    I'd like to hear if someone can find a moral/ethical argument to justify this.

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  2. #162
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantrill View Post
    I haven't moved any goal posts. Its the same question I have been asking.

    Quantrill
    Bull.

    And were a state to try [to secede] again, the same thing would occur. Your free. Just don't try to leave.
    Yes, you did. First you were all off on making sure every state had the right to come and go from the union whenever it suited the state best. Now, you just want to make it pre-1861.

    Goalposts--------------------->

  3. #163
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    Re: Texas secession?

    [QUOTE=Goshin;1060511281]
    I'm looking for a good argument, based in moral/ethical or principled values, that says why the people of a state (especially one that used to be its own country), can't decide that they want their land to be an independent land. I'd be genuinely interested to hear one, because I'm having trouble thinking one up myself.

    If the US could seceed from the UK, why can't Texas seceed from the US?

    If the fundamental concept of private property is that you take what's there and mix your labor with it, and take ownership of the product thereby.... how can anyone who doesn't live in Texas claim the right to overrule the will of those who DO live in Texas?

    I'd like to hear if someone can find a moral/ethical argument to justify this.
    Since I've been doing this for a while and need to leave, for now I'll only ask one thing of you, then I'll try to address you later on.

    What would be some unintended consequences of every state reserving the right to become it's own sovereign nation at any time, no limits placed on this action?

  4. #164
    Educator Quantrill's Avatar
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by RadicalModerate View Post
    Bull.



    Yes, you did. First you were all off on making sure every state had the right to come and go from the union whenever it suited the state best. Now, you just want to make it pre-1861.

    Goalposts--------------------->
    No. 1861 is when the War between the States took away any right to secesssion. So after that , it doesn't matter. We are a Union by force not constitution. Which is what you were saying.

    Prior to 1861 any state did have the right to secede. For what ever reasons it may have.

    So, no goal posts were moved. You just found you couldn't prove what you stated.


    Quantrill
    Last edited by Quantrill; 05-19-12 at 02:16 PM.

  5. #165
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    Re: Texas secession?

    [QUOTE=RadicalModerate;1060511302]
    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post

    Since I've been doing this for a while and need to leave, for now I'll only ask one thing of you, then I'll try to address you later on.

    What would be some unintended consequences of every state reserving the right to become it's own sovereign nation at any time, no limits placed on this action?
    Again, what does that matter as to the legality of secession? Your whole argument is 'because it shouldn't be'. Which is why you don't have any proof.

    Quantrill

  6. #166
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    I see the federal government as a voluntary compact among a group of sovereign states. If any state wishes to leave, they can. The people of the other 49 states are not the owners of Texas.
    Tell that to the Confederate States of America
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  7. #167
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    With Texas there is some personal stake here because people identify themselves nationally. So, in essence, to lose a piece of Texas would be to lose a piece of themselves and their identity. This is a HUGE motivator.

    Afghanistan is some country in the middle east we were nervous about. In terms of motivation, it doesn't really compare.

    The difference between you and 99.999% of the population is that people think of the US as a whole and not by state. So you may not share the same perspective, but its a cultural thing. But culturally, in people's minds, sovereignty is national, not by state, so they would not consider it an invasion, but a defense of the homeland. Right or wrong from whatever philosophy, this is how people would behave.
    You present a valid point.

  8. #168
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quantrill View Post
    Again, what does that matter as to the legality of secession? Your whole argument is 'because it shouldn't be'. Which is why you don't have any proof.
    No. 1861 is when the War between the States took away any right to secesssion.
    Hmmmmmm...

  9. #169
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canell View Post
    Howdy,

    Let's assume times get tough, the US dollar crashes or something of that magnitude. Would you mind Texas secession if they choose to?

    Howdy, Canell.

    This is an interesting question you pose. Here's my take:

    First, a couple of caveats...

    1. I got into this thread late and there are a boatload of posts. I'm not inclined to spend the time to read all of them, so my views may have been expressed already by others.
    2. Someone mentioned early in this thread that the question of secession has already been discussed. I haven't read that thread.
    3. I am not up to speed on the law, so I can't comment on the legality of secession.

    Okay, here goes.

    I personally don't mind if Texas secedes, but I can see dangers to the US if it does. There would be the danger of the federal government being seen as weak if they allow this to happen. There would be the danger of other States following Texas's lead and attempting to secede as well. These dangers could include the collapse of the United States. We saw a similar event back in the late 80's/early 90's with the Soviet Union. While I think these possible dangers should be considered by the citizens of Texas, I don't necessarily think these dangers should prevent Texas from executing it's secession.

    Bringing up the Soviet Union spawns another point...why would Texas want to secede? More to the point, what conditions would have to be present to cause Texas to want to secede? You mentioned the Dollar crashing or something of that magnitude. I don't think that would be enough. Consider the Soviet Union. Now, I haven't studied the reasons for their collapse, but it's my impression that rather than their currency collapsing or something along those lines, the main reason for the Soviet Statess secessions was to get out from under oppression. I think something along THOSE lines would be sufficient justification...but I don't see evidence of that kind of oppression.
    Last edited by Mycroft; 05-19-12 at 02:33 PM.
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  10. #170
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by RadicalModerate View Post
    Hmmmmmm...
    Union by bayonet. Not constitution.

    Quantrill

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