View Poll Results: Texas secession?

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    41 35.65%
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Thread: Texas secession?

  1. #1181
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    From reading some of J. Madison's later writings, even in his day conservatives (especially S. Carolina) had loathing for the entire Constitution except of course for the 10th amendment. So what surprises me is how little has changed. lol
    Is that why no liberal wants to follow such things as the commerce clause?

  2. #1182
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    It talks of all engagements and the founders dismissed the connection of the AOC to it over and over again.
    You're gonna have to show me because I haven't seen any evidence of that.



    As I said it was the goal of the country, nothing and nothing less.
    It was the 'intention" and the fact that it preceded the constitution gives it a lot of weight in what the constitution was for which was to provide a framework for a strong central government. Very little was mentioned about the states and the 10th amendment was almost an after thought since it was dead last on the Bill of Rights.



    The AOC is not legally backed and the DOI is not law, so regardless of if they look at them they should not use them to find a ruling like Chase did.
    The constitution didn't create the United States. That compact was already created under the AOC. The constitution recognizes the already existing United States in it's Preamble, "We the People of the United States". So yes, the Constitution does indeed legally back the AOC because that was the original compact that created the Union and from that the Constitution. No one said the DoI was a law until you just tried to say they did. A bit of deviousness on your part.

  3. #1183
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    We have pretty much shown that this is NOT about the Constitution. What it is about is a set of self imposed beliefs based on axioms that cannot be proven valid but are only accepted the way somebody accepts religious faith. Anything which deviates from that belief system is looked upon as foreign or false and is rejected.

    It does not matter how many times reality is pointed out to some. They simply BELIEVE.
    Self-imposed beliefs based on axioms? Huh?

    We're talking about whether the constitution prohibits a state from leaving the union. This has nothing to to with axioms and is simply an exercise in reading.

    If one reads the constitution, one will see that it contains a list of powers (art I, sec 8) that the states delegated to the federal government. It then contains a list of restrictions on the states (art I, sec 10). It then says that anything that hasn't been delegated to the federal government or that hasn't be prohibited to the states is reserved to the states (10th amendment).

    So, in order to answer the question of whether a state may secede is simply a matter of consulting these lists. Does art I, sec 8 indicate that congress has the power to keep a state in the union. No. Does art I, sec 10 prohibit a state from leaving the union? No. Therefore, per the 10th amendment, the power to do so is reserved to the states and is therefore allowed.

    See. It's simply a matter of reading and understanding the rules.

    The only ones clinging to axioms that cannot be proven are those who look at the text of the constitution and then ignore it completely and make up their own lists of things that states may and may not do.

  4. #1184
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    Re: Texas secession?

    To sum up the libertarian view here:

    The 10th Amendment is Gospel! The Preamble means nothing and Article VI is just words.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

  5. #1185
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    To sum up the libertarian view here:

    The 10th Amendment is Gospel! The Preamble means nothing and Article VI is just words.
    I didn't say that. It covers plenty of engagements just not the AOC.

  6. #1186
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Yes, I understand that he is quoting the preamble. I just don't see any language in the preamble that prohibits a state from leaving the union. In fact I don't see any language anywhere in the entire constitution that prohibits a state from leaving the union.
    There are none so blind as they who will not see.
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    There are none so blind as they who will not see.
    Would you like to show me the language in the preamble that restricts a state's ability to withdraw from the union.

    The preamble explains the reasons for creating the constitution.

    Article I, section 10 lists the prohibitions on the states. There is no prohibition against a state exiting the union.

    Where do you see such a prohibition?

  8. #1188
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    Would you like to show me the language in the preamble that restricts a state's ability to withdraw from the union.

    The preamble explains the reasons for creating the constitution.

    Article I, section 10 lists the prohibitions on the states. There is no prohibition against a state exiting the union.

    Where do you see such a prohibition?
    It has already been explained to you that the power to secede DOES NOT EXIST. As such, it is NOT included in the Tenth Amendment language reserving other powers to the states. A power that does not exist, is not reserved to anyone because it does not exist.

    I provided for you the exact text of the writings of Chief Justice Chase and his references to the US Constitution in his reasoning and his decision. If that is not good enough for you - so be it.

    It was good enough for the majority of the US Supreme Court.
    It was good enough for the nation.
    And it is good enough for me.
    Last edited by haymarket; 05-29-12 at 11:17 AM.
    __________________________________________________ _
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I didn't say that. It covers plenty of engagements just not the AOC.
    But it doesn't say anything about the Articles not being covered. Nowhere in the Constitution does it ever say that Article VI does not cover the Articles of Confederation as one of the "engagements."


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

  10. #1190
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    There are none so blind as they who will not see.
    Or..."you can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think."

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