View Poll Results: Texas secession?

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  • Anytime they want

    69 60.00%
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    2 1.74%
  • No way

    41 35.65%
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    0 0%
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    3 2.61%
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Thread: Texas secession?

  1. #1171
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    Re: Texas secession?

    from Moot

    The very first thing the Preamble says is "We the People of the United States" which means the people were already a united states before the constitution was written. How were they were united? By the AoC of course. The Preamble was meant to show the intention of the existing "United States" to form a stronger national government in order to make a more perfect union. The union under the AoC was less than perfect because the central government was weak and so the Constitution was ordained by the people to form a stronger one with more permanency.

    But you're right the courts don't use the Preamble to base their rulings on, but they do however look to it to help them find the framers "intentions", just as they look to the Federalist Papers, the AoC, the Declaration of Independence, letters and essays written by the founding fathers before and after the signing of the Constitution and more.
    It is more than a bit revealing that the modern conservative and libertarian shows nearly complete loathing for the part of the Constitution labeled as the Preamble but they have no problem elevating the personal writings and observations of individuals to the level of scared text well above the Preamble.
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    from Moot



    It is more than a bit revealing that the modern conservative and libertarian shows nearly complete loathing for the part of the Constitution labeled as the Preamble but they have no problem elevating the personal writings and observations of individuals to the level of scared text well above the Preamble.
    From reading some of J. Madison's later writings, even in his day conservatives (especially S. Carolina) had loathing for the entire Constitution except of course for the 10th amendment. So what surprises me is how little has changed. lol

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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by JuanBatista View Post
    May I ask, are you involved with the secession movement?
    And are you aware that secesson sentiment in TX is virtually all among very conservative whites? The Latino population would oppose this to their last breath, as would progressive cities like Austin.
    Any secession attempt would lead to violence and a shattered state.
    I don't actively take action to forward Texas towards secession, I would simply highly support it if it were to come to pass.

    Why the hell would I care about the demographics of something I support? I believe what I believe regardless of party lines and race. Perhaps you consider grouping yourself into an ideological and race based clique to be an effective argument, but I don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    On a previous page, I provided the reasoning from Chief Justice Chase.

    and more from Chase

    and more from the Chief Justice

    The Court clearly does NOT see it as you do.

    Nor does the current most conservative Justice on the Court Antonin Scalia
    I had asked whether the court cited any specific constitutional prohibition against a state leaving the union. None of these quotes do so.

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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    No your not. You're basing your opinion on your own opinion of the constitution, not what it really says or does.

    If you have no idea then you don't understand the constitution.

    What is it about the Supreme court that you don't understand? You seem wanton to ignore it's existence in this discussion.
    I understand that the supreme court's job is to judge cases. I am not disputing that their job is to judge cases. I am criticizing their decision in this particular instance.

    I think they got it wrong because 1) there is no constitutional prohibition against a state leaving (Look in article I, section 10, that lists the prohibitions on states) and 2) the 10th amendment says that the states have the power to act in any manner that is not prohibited by the constitution.

    Again, I am not saying that the court may not make decisions. Of course, that is the court's job. I am simply critiquing this particular decision.

    If you think they got it right, then I would like to hear why. If you think my critique is wrong, again, tell me why.

  6. #1176
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    I had asked whether the court cited any specific constitutional prohibition against a state leaving the union. None of these quotes do so.
    Just the opposite. He states quite clearly that there is no such power to leave the union once joined because of the permanent nature of the Constitution itself.

    By these, the Union was solemnly declared to "be perpetual." And when these Articles were found to be inadequate to the exigencies of the country, the Constitution was ordained "to form a more perfect Union." It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these words. What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not?
    Chase is quoting directly from the Constitution.
    Last edited by haymarket; 05-29-12 at 09:42 AM.
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centinel View Post
    I had asked whether the court cited any specific constitutional prohibition against a state leaving the union. None of these quotes do so.
    Looks like it would be a waste of time considering you didn't read and/or understand the quotes he's already shown to you. Besides, all your going to do is dismiss anything anyone posts that doesn't fit your limited understanding of the constitution.

  8. #1178
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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Looks like it would be a waste of time considering you didn't read and/or understand the quotes he's already shown to you. Besides, all your going to do is dismiss anything anyone posts that doesn't fit your limited understanding of the constitution.
    We have pretty much shown that this is NOT about the Constitution. What it is about is a set of self imposed beliefs based on axioms that cannot be proven valid but are only accepted the way somebody accepts religious faith. Anything which deviates from that belief system is looked upon as foreign or false and is rejected.

    It does not matter how many times reality is pointed out to some. They simply BELIEVE.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Courts are not infallible to be sure. But most of them do try to follow the Constitution as humanly possible.


    Article Six references the AOC as the Confederation and says that all debts contracted and engagements entered into under the Confederation remain valid under the new Constitution. One of those engagements entered into was the formation of a perpetual union among the states. Article six doesn't dissolve that engagement, it validates it.
    It talks of all engagements and the founders dismissed the connection of the AOC to it over and over again.

    The very first thing the Preamble says is "We the People of the United States" which means the people were already a united states before the constitution was written. How were they were united? By the AoC of course. The Preamble was meant to show the intention of the existing "United States" to form a stronger national government in order to make a more perfect union. The union under the AoC was less than perfect because the central government was weak and so the Constitution was ordained by the people to form a stronger one with more permanency.
    As I said it was the goal of the country, nothing more and nothing less.

    But you're right the courts don't use the Preamble to base their rulings on, but they do however look to it to help them find the framers "intentions", just as they look to the Federalist Papers, the AoC, the Declaration of Independence, letters and essays written by the founding fathers before and after the signing of the Constitution and more.
    The AOC is not standing so they shouldn't even be looking at it.
    Last edited by Henrin; 05-29-12 at 10:00 AM.

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    Re: Texas secession?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Just the opposite. He states quite clearly that there is no such power to leave the union once joined because of the permanent nature of the Constitution itself.

    Chase is quoting directly from the Constitution.
    Yes, I understand that he is quoting the preamble. I just don't see any language in the preamble that prohibits a state from leaving the union. In fact I don't see any language anywhere in the entire constitution that prohibits a state from leaving the union.

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