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Thread: For Obama voters only!

  1. #111
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    Re: For Obama voters only!

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    That's the thing. U6 assumes those people still want to work instead of just receive neverending unemployment.
    We have spent trillions of dollars with nothing but a bump in economic growth. President Obama's and the Dem's theory of economic growth has failed. Like I said, I'll give him the pass that is gas prices. Other than that, it has failed. Especially with the record debt we have accumulated. I firmly believe that if he had it his way, we'd be at about 17.5 to 18 trillion in debt by the end of his first term. That's astronomical.
    It was a bump because it did not last, and in fact we then went the other direction. Debt is a real problem, but debt is a problem that is not today and that growth reduces. Further, not spending on infrastructure projects is a false savings, since spending does have to happen on those. The smart thing is bust out roadwork and the like when the economy is doing poorly, then you can spend less when the economy is full burn and pay off that money spent. GDP for 2011 was ~15 trillion. 1 % growth is therefore about 150 billion. You can see that it won't take terribly long to pay off the infrastructure work done during recessions/downturns. To give you an idea, while the stimulus was in effect, GDP growth was about 1 % higher than it is now, which suggests that the stimulus accounted for about 150 billion in growth(very very roughly). That 150 billion gets tacked onto to this year as well(since without that growth GDP would be 150 billion lower, so in 2 years, we have gained 300 billion in GDP from that stimulus(vast oversimplification to illustrate the point.

    The idea is to get through recessions fast, get the economy burning again, then pay for it. What happened instead is that the get the economy burning got sidetracked by a congress that all of a sudden was worried about spending that they never cared before(a cynical person would suggest this was for political reasons, with further evidence by those same people's reaction to the automatic spending cuts). The other thing to remember is that the US is not going to go broke today, tomorrow, next year, or even next decade unless something catastrophic happens outside of what we can predict. We do have to fix the debt. When the economy is good, you pay off the spending from when the economy us bad. We also have to understand that a problem 50 + years in the making is not going to be solved overnight, nor does it have to be. If spending grows slower than the economy, then the problem will, slowly but surely, go away. If you slowly cut spending while the economy is good, that speeds things along.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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  2. #112
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    Re: For Obama voters only!

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    It was a bump because it did not last, and in fact we then went the other direction. Debt is a real problem, but debt is a problem that is not today and that growth reduces. Further, not spending on infrastructure projects is a false savings, since spending does have to happen on those. The smart thing is bust out roadwork and the like when the economy is doing poorly, then you can spend less when the economy is full burn and pay off that money spent. GDP for 2011 was ~15 trillion. 1 % growth is therefore about 150 billion. You can see that it won't take terribly long to pay off the infrastructure work done during recessions/downturns. To give you an idea, while the stimulus was in effect, GDP growth was about 1 % higher than it is now, which suggests that the stimulus accounted for about 150 billion in growth(very very roughly). That 150 billion gets tacked onto to this year as well(since without that growth GDP would be 150 billion lower, so in 2 years, we have gained 300 billion in GDP from that stimulus(vast oversimplification to illustrate the point.

    The idea is to get through recessions fast, get the economy burning again, then pay for it. What happened instead is that the get the economy burning got sidetracked by a congress that all of a sudden was worried about spending that they never cared before(a cynical person would suggest this was for political reasons, with further evidence by those same people's reaction to the automatic spending cuts). The other thing to remember is that the US is not going to go broke today, tomorrow, next year, or even next decade unless something catastrophic happens outside of what we can predict. We do have to fix the debt. When the economy is good, you pay off the spending from when the economy us bad. We also have to understand that a problem 50 + years in the making is not going to be solved overnight, nor does it have to be. If spending grows slower than the economy, then the problem will, slowly but surely, go away. If you slowly cut spending while the economy is good, that speeds things along.
    All that sounds great in theory. But when you have a Senate approving bills that allow millions to be spent on researching shrimp running on treadmills and funding for Pakistani Sesame Street, it doesn't work. Our gov't always says they will use the model you describe, but they never do. Why? Because they can't help themselves. They have to spend money. If money is raking in, politicians seek more for their districts. They don't have the simple yet effective attitude that you have.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

  3. #113
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    Re: For Obama voters only!

    Quote Originally Posted by Josie View Post
    I'm interested in how you're feeling about this year's election.

    Are you pretty sure he'll win or not so much? Vote please!
    If it were put to popular vote Obama wins hands down, but this isn't the case. We have a two party system which has become hyper-partisan, so it doesn't matter how well Obama is governing or how bad Romney is campaigning, if your a D your most likely going to vote D, if your and R your probably going to vote R... It's scary to think Mitt Romney could be the next leader of the free world.

  4. #114
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    Re: For Obama voters only!

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    That's the thing. U6 assumes those people still want to work instead of just receive neverending unemployment.
    We have spent trillions of dollars with nothing but a bump in economic growth. President Obama's and the Dem's theory of economic growth has failed. Like I said, I'll give him the pass that is gas prices. Other than that, it has failed. Especially with the record debt we have accumulated. I firmly believe that if he had it his way, we'd be at about 17.5 to 18 trillion in debt by the end of his first term. That's astronomical.
    Here is what Obama's policies have done for the US economy. The Bikini Graph is back: 115,000 jobs added, unemployment drops to 8.1% | | The Political CarnivalThe Political Carnival I agree it is at a slow rate but unfortunately the House of Reps. (who carry the power of the purse) are only trying to balance the budget on one half of the ledger with cuts, cuts, cuts; cuts to education, cuts to healthcare, cuts to social security, cuts to unemployment benefits, cuts that hurt those who are already hurting. While giving tax breaks to already wealthy Corps. CEOs and CFOs. (here is a break down of how Ds versus Rs give tax breaks; perhaps not relevant but this is a political forum http://ecosquared.wordpress.com/2010...est-americans/ ). Really we need an all of the above approach. Cut spending, increase tax revenue (ideally by ending all of the Bush-Obama tax cuts), restructure and consolidate federal programs, eliminate tax breaks for oil companies and businesses that send jobs overseas, give tax breaks for those businesses that bring jobs back to American soil, and stimulate the economy by contracting private companies to improve infrastructure (roads, bridges, mass transit, energy grid). We need to stop holding the President responsible for what should be the Congresses job.

  5. #115
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    Re: For Obama voters only!

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    All that sounds great in theory. But when you have a Senate approving bills that allow millions to be spent on researching shrimp running on treadmills and funding for Pakistani Sesame Street, it doesn't work. Our gov't always says they will use the model you describe, but they never do. Why? Because they can't help themselves. They have to spend money. If money is raking in, politicians seek more for their districts. They don't have the simple yet effective attitude that you have.
    They did reduce spending the late 90's, though I admit that's a rare example if you're looking over the last 30 years. People also complained about the cuts to military spending during that same period. *shrug*
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  6. #116
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    Re: For Obama voters only!

    No one needs to tell Republicans they'll lose the 2012 Presidential election. They've known this since 2010, if not 2008. McCain was two gonads and a chestful of medals better than Mitt. All of us saw what happened there. This is why every single one of us, left or right, can name at least three Republicans who would be markedly better candidates than Romney or any of the other "dwarves". Between now and November we're going to watch the best campaigner of our time--just ask John McCain & Hillary Clinton--against someone who jumps the shark on a daily basis. This won't be pretty.

    Indeed, this is the only election that Democrats should not be worried about. Unless a 72-year-old Hillary Clinton runs in 2016, the Democrats are likely to lose the White House after Obama's second term due to a paucity of bench strength. They should be concentrating on filibuster-proofing the Senate and, if not winning the House, bloodying enough Tea Party noses to get them thinking of accountability. Even gubernatorial races are important here; the DNC's too-little-too-late approach in Wisconsin is baffling, to say the least.

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  7. #117
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    Re: For Obama voters only!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mlinsenbigler View Post
    Here is what Obama's policies have done for the US economy. The Bikini Graph is back: 115,000 jobs added, unemployment drops to 8.1% | | The Political CarnivalThe Political Carnival I agree it is at a slow rate but unfortunately the House of Reps. (who carry the power of the purse) are only trying to balance the budget on one half of the ledger with cuts, cuts, cuts; cuts to education, cuts to healthcare, cuts to social security, cuts to unemployment benefits, cuts that hurt those who are already hurting. While giving tax breaks to already wealthy Corps. CEOs and CFOs. (here is a break down of how Ds versus Rs give tax breaks; perhaps not relevant but this is a political forum The President’s plan is solid: increase taxes on the wealthiest Americans « Ekos² ). Really we need an all of the above approach. Cut spending, increase tax revenue (ideally by ending all of the Bush-Obama tax cuts), restructure and consolidate federal programs, eliminate tax breaks for oil companies and businesses that send jobs overseas, give tax breaks for those businesses that bring jobs back to American soil, and stimulate the economy by contracting private companies to improve infrastructure (roads, bridges, mass transit, energy grid). We need to stop holding the President responsible for what should be the Congresses job.
    When spending is out of control, cuts are what is needed. You speak of things that hurt the poor and help the wealthy yet want to end the Bush tax cuts. That makes no sense. The President is held responsible for one reason, in my view. His party controls the Senate. I have not seen him, not once, say a word about the Senate not passing a budget, arguing and pandering just like the House has been accused of doing, or pushing them accept anything the House pushes to them. He always lays it at the feet of the House simply because his party is the minority there. Find me a quote where President Obama criticizes Harry Reid because I haven't seen it. You don't need to find me one where he criticizes John Boehner because he does it weekly.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

  8. #118
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    Re: For Obama voters only!

    Quote Originally Posted by Josie View Post
    I'm interested in how you're feeling about this year's election.

    Are you pretty sure he'll win or not so much? Vote please!
    I think that Obama will win big; not because everybody loves him, but to show the Republicans how wrong they are.
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

  9. #119
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    Re: For Obama voters only!

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    They did reduce spending the late 90's, though I admit that's a rare example if you're looking over the last 30 years. People also complained about the cuts to military spending during that same period. *shrug*
    And it all started with, of all people, Newt Gingrich taking a stand and allowing the gov't shut down. Maybe one day we'll look back at Boehner in the same light lol.
    I'm glad you brought up military spending. I have no issue with our spending being cut. But the problem is that the big time programs never get cut. The F-22's of the world stay around because they bring jobs to politician's districts in 46 states. The things that go are the projects for troops. Stuff like research and procurement of better body armor, squad level weapons (rifles, machine guns, etc), and general equipment that makes troops more effective in combat are the things that get cut. Barracks stop being built, chowhalls get closed, and maintenance of existing equipment goes to the way side. That's why you hear so much about the 90's era military cuts. Because we, at the ground level, feel the hurt on that. Not the Lockheed-Martin's or the General Dynamics of the world. They do just fine. When new jets, which we don't need, are being researched while we are duct taping our flak jackets closed, it becomes a sour spot for us.
    Finally, and the thing that really pisses me off about military cuts, is how quickly they happen in relation to everything else. As soon as you hear talk of having to "buckle down" and stop spending, all eyes turn to the military like the eye in Lord of the Rings. It's ridiculous. The reason this happens, I believe, is because we are the one group of people who cannot rise up and protest against the gov't for the money they take. Sure, civilians act like they are pissed about it but what does it really do to them? Do they have to sleep in mold infested barracks like us? Do they have to eat in roach infested chowhalls like us? Do they have to stack 3 to a room into barracks rooms designed for 2? Do they break down on the side of the road everytime they try to take their "company vehicle" out? No, they don't. They just see cuts in military spending as another political pressure point that they must argue for because it's the party line. All of those things I mentioned happened during the good years. Imagine how it will be during the bad.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
    Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson

  10. #120
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    Re: For Obama voters only!

    You forgot the other thing that gets cut - and that's training. Massive weapons systems hardly ever get cut, even if the Pentagon or the military don't want them. When I was in the service, it was always training that took the hit, and I'm guessing it's no different now.
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