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Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

Is signing Norquist's anti-tax pledge un-American?

  • Signing Norquist's pledge is anti-American

    Votes: 8 44.4%
  • Signing Norquist's pledge is pro-American

    Votes: 2 11.1%
  • Other (please comment)

    Votes: 8 44.4%

  • Total voters
    18
Are you kidding? Given how high military funding is right now, that sounds wonderful. Sounds entirely consistent with the other pledge - fiscally conservative.

Yeah, I'd actually be OK with that one myself, but I used it to illustrate the foolishness of the pledge. If America was actually attacked (from space aliens if we're gonna need more $$$), all those pledge signers would be voting to raise taxes and fund whatever was necessary to defend ourselves.
 
This is not the case all the time...and proof of that is OBamacare where Pelosi and reid bruatalized everyone to vote for it.
The same happens in the GOP...they are coerced...threatened and bought to get in line. If you want pork for your district to make you look good...you have to play ball.

This is also an age old issue and one both parties have engaged in for some time. It's basically the basic nature of compromise, brokering deals, and party politics. You're not just one person making legislation, you're a body and as such sometimes you must strike deals to get what you want done. This is still ultimately about the Judgement of the elected official though...do they believe the deals they're making in exchange for what they're getting represent a net positive gain for their constituents and the country. It's a foolish and naive thought for anyone on either side to think we're electing people specifically for the expectation they will definitely vote this way or that on any specific issue. The people we vote for are elected to use their best judgement when it comes to the laws being put forth before them. We hope, based on thow they campaigned and how they showed upon what their judgements will be made, that it means they will vote the way we want on issues important to us...but ultimately we elected people so that those people can use their best judgement in terms of the votes on laws. And if that means making deals to pass one thing to get another, that's part of it.

And if we don't like their judgement, then in 2 or 6 years we can try and vote them out.
 
The problem today is that this pledge is making it impossible to get anything done in the congress....they are so afraid of breaking the pledge that nothing is getting done...

1) For many of their constituents, that is not a "problem" at all

2) The "pledge" isn't making it impossible, it's their belief that what the pledge calls for is correct OR the belief that if they break the pledge they'll get voted out

As I said...any one of them can break the pledge at any time without any immediete issue. The one issue they may have is that it could cause them to lose re-election. However....if breaking that pledge would cause them to lose reelectoin, then this notion that they're not doing right by their constituents loses some teeth since if that was really the case then their constituents wouldn't throw their asses out because of breaking the pledge.
 
Yeah, I'd actually be OK with that one myself, but I used it to illustrate the foolishness of the pledge. If America was actually attacked (from space aliens if we're gonna need more $$$), all those pledge signers would be voting to raise taxes and fund whatever was necessary to defend ourselves.

That's the wonderful thing about non-binding pledges. It's entirely possible to just completely ignore it in extreme circumstances where violating it is not just needed but would be supported by your constituents. But in times when that's not the case...where a congressman's judgement is that the pledges actions are correct and/or when they think their constituents will approve of it...then there's nothing wrong with a pledge. It's simply a different means of speaking with ones constituents and expressing what you plan on doing legislatively.
 
That's the wonderful thing about non-binding pledges. It's entirely possible to just completely ignore it in extreme circumstances where violating it is not just needed but would be supported by your constituents. But in times when that's not the case...where a congressman's judgement is that the pledges actions are correct and/or when they think their constituents will approve of it...then there's nothing wrong with a pledge. It's simply a different means of speaking with ones constituents and expressing what you plan on doing legislatively.



Thanks, I appreciate your comments.
 
The problem today is that this pledge is making it impossible to get anything done in the congress....they are so afraid of breaking the pledge that nothing is getting done...

It means that if they want to balance the budget - which they should, and I wouldn't mind a pledge to that effect - they have to be committed to cutting spending.
 
Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to?

their constituents
 
these reps work, or are supposed to, for their constituents, not grover norquist...they were not voted into office to represent grover norquist, when their constituents elected them, nowhere on the ballot did it state that if they were elected, they would serve the will of grover norquist...frankly, if i was one of these reps, and norquist approached me with this 'pledge', i would tell him to kiss my ass, i don't work for him.

The reps are not working for Norquist.They are only reaffirming what their constituents voted for them to do, which is not to raise taxes. Again this would be no different than Nancy Pelosi or some other liberal democrat signing a pro-abortion or pro-gay marriage pledge.
 
Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to?

their constituents

that would be Norquist and the other right wing forces he is aligned with.
 
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"Inequality is bad for growth, stability and efficiency. … Inequality peaked both before the Great Depression and before the Great Recession, and it's not an accident. So basically, when we have a lot of inequality, demand goes down. … All this inequality was offset by creating a bubble. The bubble allowed people to consume more. Now we have the inequality but we don't have a bubble, and that means that we will have persistent, weak demand, and therefore unless we create another bubble it's going to be very difficult for us to get back to full employment.

A lot of the inequality that we have in the United States is created by distortions – excessive financial sector, monopolies like Microsoft … giving the oil companies, mining companies resources at a discount. … These things distort the economy, while they create wealth at the top. So it's not wealth creation – it's wealth redistribution, which makes the size of the pie smaller. ...

"Redistributing the tax burden can do more to promote growth than lowering taxes across the board. The reason is that lowering taxes for everyone gives benefits -- needlessly -- to firms who have no plans to invest, tax cut or not. From an incentive point of view, that's wasteful. Money was spent that did nothing to generate investment. Had the money been used elsewhere, e.g. to promote investment among firms that might actually respond, then we would get more growth per dollar of tax cuts ("bang for the buck" ought to be just as important for tax cuts as it is with government spending). Thus, as Stiglitz says, we can take tax cuts away from firms who are not responding to them and redirect them elsewhere. That gives us the desired increase in investment and growth without increasing the deficit, and hence reduces the pressure to make cuts in social programs or to raise taxes elsewhere to compensate for all the money wasted on tax cuts given to firms who will not increase investment in response. Giving tax cuts to firms who will not react to them simply redistributes income without producing the desired outcome on economic growth. Once again, if anything this type of redistribution lowers efficiency and growth, the opposite of what is intended."

Economist's View: Productivity
 
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Norquist's pledge starts with the best intentions. Eventually, it becomes a noose.
 
"Inequality is bad for growth, stability and efficiency.

Income inequality is in general not bad for growth, stability, or efficiency. Sure, extreme income inequality would be bad for those reasons, but the US is nowhere near those levels.

Inequality peaked both before the Great Depression and before the Great Recession, and it's not an accident.

That's not surprising. It is the wealthiest who invest heavily, so a market crash causes them to lose more. The peak is a symptom, not a cause.

So basically, when we have a lot of inequality, demand goes down. … All this inequality was offset by creating a bubble. The bubble allowed people to consume more. Now we have the inequality but we don't have a bubble, and that means that we will have persistent, weak demand, and therefore unless we create another bubble it's going to be very difficult for us to get back to full employment.

Demand does not go down when you have inequality. People who make more consume more. Demand might be restructured, because people who make more demand different things than those who don't, but it doesn't just go down because of income inequality.

And I'm not sure where you're going with the bubble argument. Income inequality is income inequality. Just because there was a bubble, doesn't mean that the reported income inequality was somehow an exaggeration of the actual income inequality.

Also, we don't want a bubble. Bubbles are artificial inflationary events that cause far more harm than good. And full employment has nothing to do with bubbles. Full employment occurs when the perceived value of labor is equal to the market value of labor. Normally, the perceived value of labor is higher than the market value of labor, which is why we have unemployment.

A lot of the inequality that we have in the United States is created by distortions – excessive financial sector, monopolies like Microsoft … giving the oil companies, mining companies resources at a discount. … These things distort the economy, while they create wealth at the top. So it's not wealth creation – it's wealth redistribution, which makes the size of the pie smaller. ...

You're forgetting the biggest player in these distortions: the government. Through its complicated tax policy, the government can pick winners and losers, incentivizing and disincentivizing activities. Government bailouts and stimulus money is used to prop up companies, who but for the assistance would fail, and ultimately that money helps prop up inefficiencies inherent to the system.

"Redistributing the tax burden can do more to promote growth than lowering taxes across the board. The reason is that lowering taxes for everyone gives benefits -- needlessly -- to firms who have no plans to invest, tax cut or not. From an incentive point of view, that's wasteful. Money was spent that did nothing to generate investment. Had the money been used elsewhere, e.g. to promote investment among firms that might actually respond, then we would get more growth per dollar of tax cuts ("bang for the buck" ought to be just as important for tax cuts as it is with government spending). Thus, as Stiglitz says, we can take tax cuts away from firms who are not responding to them and redirect them elsewhere. That gives us the desired increase in investment and growth without increasing the deficit, and hence reduces the pressure to make cuts in social programs or to raise taxes elsewhere to compensate for all the money wasted on tax cuts given to firms who will not increase investment in response. Giving tax cuts to firms who will not react to them simply redistributes income without producing the desired outcome on economic growth. Once again, if anything this type of redistribution lowers efficiency and growth, the opposite of what is intended."

The problem is that this form of highly selective tax cuts and tax increases only propagates the wealth redistribution effect you complained about earlier. If you increase taxes on industry X, you decrease the incentive for people to participate in industry X, and ironically, because there would then be fewer players in industry X, it would actually be industry X that needs additional funds for expansion and investment.

If you decrease taxes on industry Y, you would artificially be increasing the incentives to participate in that industry. Investment money would, at least temporarily, flood in, but market saturation would happen in short order. Then, industry Y would no longer be in need of those decreased taxes, because its not investing in anything.

All this tax plan would succeed in doing is artificially changing the incentives to participate in certain markets through a redistribution of wealth. In the short run, sure, you might see additional moneys in certain industries (though, since they aren't there already, this money would, by definition, be inefficiently used). In the long run, it would fail to solve any problems whatsoever.

 
Yeah it is. No nation or society has ever in history survived with income inequality as severe as what we have in America today.

Income inequality in America: The 99 percent | The Economist

So, here's the problem with your argument. The income inequality of the 99% hasn't change significantly. Real income is keeping pace with the CPI. On the whole, the rest of this country is not any worse than they were 50 years ago.

But now, the top 1% has all this income. How does the fact that the 1% have all this income change the game for the rest of us?

The short answer is that it doesn't. Income and wealth are not zero-sum games. The oft repeated talking point about how no other society has survived with our income inequality is because no other country has had income like we do. The top 1% in this country aren't dictators who are taking money through an abusive tax system, or cronies who benefit from the corruption of government. They are intelligent business owners who have provided amazing products that benefit the world over. A first world nation with our level of income inequality has never existed because our situation is fundamentally different from all others that have preceded us.
 
Income inequality is in general not bad for growth, stability, or efficiency. Sure, extreme income inequality would be bad for those reasons, but the US is nowhere near those levels.

In fact, the US is ranked 4th in income inequality, with only Turkey, Mexico, and Chile having more extreme income inequality.

10 Countries With The Worst Income Inequality: OECD


Demand does not go down when you have inequality. People who make more consume more. Demand might be restructured, because people who make more demand different things than those who don't, but it doesn't just go down because of income inequality.

That defies all logic and reason. The lower income classes spend much more of their income on consumables than do the rich. If what you believe were true, businesses would not be complaining of lack of demand, because the rich are the most wealthy they have ever been.

And I'm not sure where you're going with the bubble argument. Income inequality is income inequality. Just because there was a bubble, doesn't mean that the reported income inequality was somehow an exaggeration of the actual income inequality.

Also, we don't want a bubble. Bubbles are artificial inflationary events that cause far more harm than good. And full employment has nothing to do with bubbles. Full employment occurs when the perceived value of labor is equal to the market value of labor. Normally, the perceived value of labor is higher than the market value of labor, which is why we have unemployment.

You missed the point of the article.

You're forgetting the biggest player in these distortions: the government. Through its complicated tax policy, the government can pick winners and losers, incentivizing and disincentivizing activities. Government bailouts and stimulus money is used to prop up companies, who but for the assistance would fail, and ultimately that money helps prop up inefficiencies inherent to the system.

The economy improved due to the stimulus.



The problem is that this form of highly selective tax cuts and tax increases only propagates the wealth redistribution effect you complained about earlier. If you increase taxes on industry X, you decrease the incentive for people to participate in industry X, and ironically, because there would then be fewer players in industry X, it would actually be industry X that needs additional funds for expansion and investment.

We had higher tax rates through most of the last half century and it never decreased incentive for people to participate in industry. Why should we continue to give people and companies tax cuts that do not invest in jobs in this country???
 
In fact, the US is ranked 4th in income inequality, with only Turkey, Mexico, and Chile having more extreme income inequality.

10 Countries With The Worst Income Inequality: OECD

Relative income inequality, by itself, tells us nothing. Income inequality is only useful as a metric to compare an economy to an itself at an earlier or later time.

That defies all logic and reason. The lower income classes spend much more of their income on consumables than do the rich. If what you believe were true, businesses would not be complaining of lack of demand, because the rich are the most wealthy they have ever been.

Just because the rich have a higher percentage of income does not mean that they have more money.

You missed the point of the article.

Then please enlighten me. And I'm not sure what article you are referring to. Your link is simply to a category on a unabashedly liberal blog.

The economy improved due to the stimulus.

That's not surprising, because the stimulus was ultimately debt-financed, which means that it was an introduction of additional capital to the market, which would obviously result in an improved economy in the short term. The problem is that debt is not without its own externalities.

We had higher tax rates through most of the last half century and it never decreased incentive for people to participate in industry. Why should we continue to give people and companies tax cuts that do not invest in jobs in this country???

You're conflating a host of things with this statement. There are three things going on here:

1) Marginal tax rate - while the marginal tax rate was higher during the last half century, the actual taxes paid were approximately the same, if not lower, than today.
2) General tax level - higher taxes dissuade investment relative to lower taxes.
3) Industry specific tax cuts - tax breaks for specific industries (likewise tax penalties for specific industries) create artificial incentives and disincentives to invest in those industries. In particular, these are the most damaging, because they amount to nothing more than a government imposed redistribution of wealth among companies. I'm not going to repost what I said above, but it all applies.
 
Relative income inequality, by itself, tells us nothing. Income inequality is only useful as a metric to compare an economy to an itself at an earlier or later time.

Thanks for your opinion, but I'll go with the economists, history, and common sense that a consumer economy cannot prosper when most of the country's wealth is concentrated out of the consumers reach.
 
poverty, for children and elderly, is worse now than it was 50 years ago.... and this is after a very long and protracted comprehensive government war on poverty.

keep it up statists, you are doing a wonderful job of making and keeping people poor.
 
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