View Poll Results: Is signing Norquist's anti-tax pledge un-American?

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  • Signing Norquist's pledge is anti-American

    13 56.52%
  • Signing Norquist's pledge is pro-American

    2 8.70%
  • Other (please comment)

    8 34.78%
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Thread: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

  1. #51
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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    Are you kidding? Given how high military funding is right now, that sounds wonderful. Sounds entirely consistent with the other pledge - fiscally conservative.
    Yeah, I'd actually be OK with that one myself, but I used it to illustrate the foolishness of the pledge. If America was actually attacked (from space aliens if we're gonna need more $$$), all those pledge signers would be voting to raise taxes and fund whatever was necessary to defend ourselves.

  2. #52
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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    This is not the case all the time...and proof of that is OBamacare where Pelosi and reid bruatalized everyone to vote for it.
    The same happens in the GOP...they are coerced...threatened and bought to get in line. If you want pork for your district to make you look good...you have to play ball.
    This is also an age old issue and one both parties have engaged in for some time. It's basically the basic nature of compromise, brokering deals, and party politics. You're not just one person making legislation, you're a body and as such sometimes you must strike deals to get what you want done. This is still ultimately about the Judgement of the elected official though...do they believe the deals they're making in exchange for what they're getting represent a net positive gain for their constituents and the country. It's a foolish and naive thought for anyone on either side to think we're electing people specifically for the expectation they will definitely vote this way or that on any specific issue. The people we vote for are elected to use their best judgement when it comes to the laws being put forth before them. We hope, based on thow they campaigned and how they showed upon what their judgements will be made, that it means they will vote the way we want on issues important to us...but ultimately we elected people so that those people can use their best judgement in terms of the votes on laws. And if that means making deals to pass one thing to get another, that's part of it.

    And if we don't like their judgement, then in 2 or 6 years we can try and vote them out.

  3. #53
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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    The problem today is that this pledge is making it impossible to get anything done in the congress....they are so afraid of breaking the pledge that nothing is getting done...
    1) For many of their constituents, that is not a "problem" at all

    2) The "pledge" isn't making it impossible, it's their belief that what the pledge calls for is correct OR the belief that if they break the pledge they'll get voted out

    As I said...any one of them can break the pledge at any time without any immediete issue. The one issue they may have is that it could cause them to lose re-election. However....if breaking that pledge would cause them to lose reelectoin, then this notion that they're not doing right by their constituents loses some teeth since if that was really the case then their constituents wouldn't throw their asses out because of breaking the pledge.

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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by leftofabbie View Post
    Yeah, I'd actually be OK with that one myself, but I used it to illustrate the foolishness of the pledge. If America was actually attacked (from space aliens if we're gonna need more $$$), all those pledge signers would be voting to raise taxes and fund whatever was necessary to defend ourselves.
    That's the wonderful thing about non-binding pledges. It's entirely possible to just completely ignore it in extreme circumstances where violating it is not just needed but would be supported by your constituents. But in times when that's not the case...where a congressman's judgement is that the pledges actions are correct and/or when they think their constituents will approve of it...then there's nothing wrong with a pledge. It's simply a different means of speaking with ones constituents and expressing what you plan on doing legislatively.

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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    That's the wonderful thing about non-binding pledges. It's entirely possible to just completely ignore it in extreme circumstances where violating it is not just needed but would be supported by your constituents. But in times when that's not the case...where a congressman's judgement is that the pledges actions are correct and/or when they think their constituents will approve of it...then there's nothing wrong with a pledge. It's simply a different means of speaking with ones constituents and expressing what you plan on doing legislatively.


    Thanks, I appreciate your comments.

  6. #56
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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    The problem today is that this pledge is making it impossible to get anything done in the congress....they are so afraid of breaking the pledge that nothing is getting done...
    It means that if they want to balance the budget - which they should, and I wouldn't mind a pledge to that effect - they have to be committed to cutting spending.

  7. #57
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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to?

    their constituents
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  8. #58
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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    these reps work, or are supposed to, for their constituents, not grover norquist...they were not voted into office to represent grover norquist, when their constituents elected them, nowhere on the ballot did it state that if they were elected, they would serve the will of grover norquist...frankly, if i was one of these reps, and norquist approached me with this 'pledge', i would tell him to kiss my ass, i don't work for him.
    The reps are not working for Norquist.They are only reaffirming what their constituents voted for them to do, which is not to raise taxes. Again this would be no different than Nancy Pelosi or some other liberal democrat signing a pro-abortion or pro-gay marriage pledge.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    LOL. You're a Moderate. You wouldn't know what Principles were if someone engraved them on the insides of your eyelids.
    And you wouldn't know a changing tide if you drowned in it...

  10. #60
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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to?

    their constituents
    that would be Norquist and the other right wing forces he is aligned with.
    Last edited by haymarket; 05-15-12 at 06:25 PM.
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