View Poll Results: Is signing Norquist's anti-tax pledge un-American?

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  • Signing Norquist's pledge is anti-American

    13 56.52%
  • Signing Norquist's pledge is pro-American

    2 8.70%
  • Other (please comment)

    8 34.78%
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Thread: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

  1. #41
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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    AGAIN... The pledge is TO the constituents.

    Nope. Grover Norquist doesn't live in my State and my Republican Senator sure didn't pledge it TO me, he pledged it against me.

    Sounds like those who signed have pledged to only a fraction of our citizens.
    Last edited by leftofabbie; 05-15-12 at 08:47 AM.

  2. #42
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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Excuse me friends, but it seems you're in dire need of reorientation to reality.

    This pledge pledges nothing to Grover Norquist. It only pledges to the taxpayer. Here is an example of the pledge, for the U.S. Senate

    http://www.atr.org/userfiles/Senate%20Pledge(2).pdf

    "I, ______________ , pledge to the taxpayers of the state
    of ______________ , and to the American people that I will:
    ONE, oppose any and all efforts to increase the marginal income tax
    rates for individuals and/or businesses; and
    TWO, oppose any net reduction or elimination of deductions and
    credits, unless matched dollar for dollar by further reducing tax rates."

    If you repeat otherwise again, then I can only conclude that you cannot read or that you are posting in bad faith.



    And you know what? Politicians are perfectly capable of making this sort of pledge verbally to their constituents. This is no more or less binding than those pledges - the only consequences are the possible ramification of being caught lying to your constituents. Recall George Bush's pledge for no new taxes and the support it garnered him; recall the outcry when he violated that pledge.


    Now, if you happen to be some fool that wants to pay higher taxes, well first of all, psychiatry works, give it a shot. Second of all, here's a link to where you can just donate directly to the treasury, go nuts: Gifts to the United States Government: Questions and Answers: Financial Management Service ...

    ... and oh yeah, third of all, a politician can still make pledges to his constituents to assure them and gain their vote. If this pledge is counter to your wishes, well, your option is to not vote for them. If they win anyway, they're still obliged to hold to their pledge because that's why others chose to vote for them. They choose to represent your interests by not coercing more money from you (the bastards!).


    Are we done with the nonsense, now?
    Last edited by JayDubya; 05-15-12 at 09:04 AM.

  3. #43
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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    Excuse me friends, but it seems you're in dire need of reorientation to reality.

    This pledge pledges nothing to Grover Norquist. It only pledges to the taxpayer.

    So you're OK with a pledge that says, for example....

    "I pledge to the taxpayers of the US that I will never vote for increased military funding."

    or maybe...

    "I pledge to the taxpayers of the US that I will never vote for increased funding to protect our Nation."

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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by leftofabbie View Post
    The Pledge: Grover Norquist's hold on the GOP - CBS News

    Pledging ourselves out of democracy | The Great Debate
    If anyone were to suggest that members of the House and Senate should abandon their own judgment and instead follow a strict dogma laid down by an outside body, we would be appalled. And if it were proposed that the president should be little more than a rubber stamp to sign any and all legislation presented to him by Congress, we would throw up our hands in horror.


    So, is signing Norquist's "no tax" pledge disloyal to Americans?

    No, and the fact it's even being asked says a ton about the people asking.

    1) The "tax pledge" is entirely non-binding with no congressional or legal reprucussions for voilating it. If a congressman changes his mind and feels like raising taxes would be better for America and is actually doing what his consistutents want by raising taxes then he'll suffer essentially no harm in violating the pledge

    2) The "tax pledge" is in line with what the majority of those who have joined it were saying as they were campaigning. What that means is it is in line with their view points that helped get them elected and thus is the type of thing they were elected to do

    3) Elected officials are put in place with the understanding that, to the best of their knowledge and belief, they will use their best judgement in terms of what will be helpful to America in terms of the law. If they feel this pledge does that, even if you do not, then they are doing what is expected of them.

    4) The idiotic partisan source you posted makes giant assumptions (making an ass out of themselves and well, just themselves this time) by assuming that those taking the pledge are "abandoning" their judgement which in and of itself ignores that individuals are using their judgement to judge that such a pledge is a smart thing to do.

    No, there's nothing unamerican about it. It's just the cries and bitches of some hyper partisan liberals, many of whom are the same ones who likely whined and cried that people on the right stupidly declared things their side did was "unamerican" a few years back.

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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by leftofabbie View Post
    "I pledge to the taxpayers of the US that I will never vote for increased military funding."

    or maybe...

    "I pledge to the taxpayers of the US that I will never vote for increased funding to protect our Nation."
    Entirely okay with that from a "should it be allowable" stand point.

    I wouldn't agree with it politically, and wouldn't vote for the person, but wouldn't say it's "unamerican" for them to take such a pledge. Especially if the person got elected into the congress in part because of a platform that stated they were against increasing military funding.

    Taking a symbollic pledge that does nothing but basically reiterates what your princpiles and messages were from your campaign that got you elected is hardly some great evil that we must physically stop. While you may politically disagree with the pledge's content, that doesn't mean the notion of a pledge itself is bad.

  6. #46
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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by leftofabbie View Post
    Sounds like those who signed have pledged to only a fraction of our citizens.
    Yeah, welcome to a representitive republic where we have a winner take all election system. Those who get elected are going to represent the ideals of those who elected them because those are the ideals that they ran on to GET elected. While they technically represent everyone in their district/state, the reasonable expectation and what is typically done by Democrats and Republicans alike is that the winner is going to govern and choose what law to support or oppose based on their view points which tend to be the view points that got htem elected. And if that individual is of a different party then you, it's likely view points that differ fro yours.

    The fact they expressed their views in a written pledge is superficial to the reality that's played out in over 100 times now in this countries history.

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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    No, and the fact it's even being asked says a ton about the people asking.

    1) The "tax pledge" is entirely non-binding with no congressional or legal reprucussions for voilating it. If a congressman changes his mind and feels like raising taxes would be better for America and is actually doing what his consistutents want by raising taxes then he'll suffer essentially no harm in violating the pledge

    2) The "tax pledge" is in line with what the majority of those who have joined it were saying as they were campaigning. What that means is it is in line with their view points that helped get them elected and thus is the type of thing they were elected to do

    3) Elected officials are put in place with the understanding that, to the best of their knowledge and belief, they will use their best judgement in terms of what will be helpful to America in terms of the law. If they feel this pledge does that, even if you do not, then they are doing what is expected of them.

    4) The idiotic partisan source you posted makes giant assumptions (making an ass out of themselves and well, just themselves this time) by assuming that those taking the pledge are "abandoning" their judgement which in and of itself ignores that individuals are using their judgement to judge that such a pledge is a smart thing to do.

    No, there's nothing unamerican about it. It's just the cries and bitches of some hyper partisan liberals, many of whom are the same ones who likely whined and cried that people on the right stupidly declared things their side did was "unamerican" a few years back.

    This is not the case all the time...and proof of that is OBamacare where Pelosi and reid bruatalized everyone to vote for it.
    The same happens in the GOP...they are coerced...threatened and bought to get in line. If you want pork for your district to make you look good...you have to play ball.

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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Entirely okay with that from a "should it be allowable" stand point.

    I wouldn't agree with it politically, and wouldn't vote for the person, but wouldn't say it's "unamerican" for them to take such a pledge. Especially if the person got elected into the congress in part because of a platform that stated they were against increasing military funding.

    Taking a symbollic pledge that does nothing but basically reiterates what your princpiles and messages were from your campaign that got you elected is hardly some great evil that we must physically stop. While you may politically disagree with the pledge's content, that doesn't mean the notion of a pledge itself is bad.

    Thanks, I appreciate your taking time to write a thoughtful response.

  9. #49
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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by leftofabbie View Post
    So you're OK with a pledge that says, for example....

    "I pledge to the taxpayers of the US that I will never vote for increased military funding."
    Are you kidding? Given how high military funding is right now, that sounds wonderful. Sounds entirely consistent with the other pledge - fiscally conservative.

  10. #50
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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Yeah, welcome to a representitive republic where we have a winner take all election system. Those who get elected are going to represent the ideals of those who elected them because those are the ideals that they ran on to GET elected. While they technically represent everyone in their district/state, the reasonable expectation and what is typically done by Democrats and Republicans alike is that the winner is going to govern and choose what law to support or oppose based on their view points which tend to be the view points that got htem elected. And if that individual is of a different party then you, it's likely view points that differ fro yours.

    The fact they expressed their views in a written pledge is superficial to the reality that's played out in over 100 times now in this countries history.

    The problem today is that this pledge is making it impossible to get anything done in the congress....they are so afraid of breaking the pledge that nothing is getting done...

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