View Poll Results: Is signing Norquist's anti-tax pledge un-American?

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  • Signing Norquist's pledge is anti-American

    13 56.52%
  • Signing Norquist's pledge is pro-American

    2 8.70%
  • Other (please comment)

    8 34.78%
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Thread: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

  1. #31
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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    They were elected to represent the interest of their voters.No tax-increases or lower taxes is generally one of those things republicans run on. So how can signing a document that reinforces that idea of no tax-increase or lower taxes be selling out their constituents? It would be no different than Nanci Pelosi, or some other liberal democrat signing a pro-abortion pledge or a pro-gay marriage pledge when liberal democrats generally run on those issues.
    these reps work, or are supposed to, for their constituents, not grover norquist...they were not voted into office to represent grover norquist, when their constituents elected them, nowhere on the ballot did it state that if they were elected, they would serve the will of grover norquist...frankly, if i was one of these reps, and norquist approached me with this 'pledge', i would tell him to kiss my ass, i don't work for him.

  2. #32
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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    these reps work, or are supposed to, for their constituents, not grover norquist...they were not voted into office to represent grover norquist, when their constituents elected them, nowhere on the ballot did it state that if they were elected, they would serve the will of grover norquist...frankly, if i was one of these reps, and norquist approached me with this 'pledge', i would tell him to kiss my ass, i don't work for him.
    AGAIN... The pledge is TO the constituents. Only to be held accountable by the voting OF the constituents. Constituents that WANT their elected representatives to promise not to raise taxes, when taxes are already more than high enough to cover all necessary functions of government.

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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    The only pledge a politician should make is to fulfill the wishes of their constituents.

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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    AGAIN... The pledge is TO the constituents. Only to be held accountable by the voting OF the constituents. Constituents that WANT their elected representatives to promise not to raise taxes, when taxes are already more than high enough to cover all necessary functions of government.
    no, that pledge was to grover norquist and grover norquist only...as for taxes being high enough already to cover all necessary functions, i suppose that depends on what your definition of 'necessary' is.....

  5. #35
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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    no, that pledge was to grover norquist and grover norquist only...as for taxes being high enough already to cover all necessary functions, i suppose that depends on what your definition of 'necessary' is.....
    Not that I really want to entangle myself in this debate, but the pledge is not to Norquist. If you actually read the pledge, it says (for example, the Senate Pledge):

    I _______, pledge to the taxpayers of the state of _______, and to the American people that I will...
    http://www.atr.org/userfiles/Senate%20Pledge%282%29.pdf

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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick2253 View Post
    Not that I really want to entangle myself in this debate, but the pledge is not to Norquist. If you actually read the pledge, it says (for example, the Senate Pledge):



    http://www.atr.org/userfiles/Senate%20Pledge%282%29.pdf
    disagree...it is to norquist, and to the group he leads...the only pledge i care about is




    Oath of Office

    "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God."

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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    disagree...it is to norquist, and to the group he leads...the only pledge i care about is

    Oath of Office

    "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God."
    But Norquist's pledge and the Constitutional Oath of Office are not contradictory. I'm not sure how "I pledge to the taxpayers..." can be construed as a pledge solely to Norquist.

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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick2253 View Post
    But Norquist's pledge and the Constitutional Oath of Office are not contradictory. I'm not sure how "I pledge to the taxpayers..." can be construed as a pledge solely to Norquist.
    it is a pledge to an ideology, you can't serve two masters....they pledged an oath to the constitution, and then pledged an oath to grover norquist, in the guise of the 'taxpayer'...when i vote to elect a rep or senator, i vote hoping that regardless of who wins, that that person will have the interests of all his constituents at heart, not just swear blind allegiance to a party, an ideology, or in this case, a special interest group. so yes, in my view, norquist's pledge and the constitution are at odds.

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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    it is a pledge to an ideology, you can't serve two masters....they pledged an oath to the constitution, and then pledged an oath to grover norquist, in the guise of the 'taxpayer'...when i vote to elect a rep or senator, i vote hoping that regardless of who wins, that that person will have the interests of all his constituents at heart, not just swear blind allegiance to a party, an ideology, or in this case, a special interest group. so yes, in my view, norquist's pledge and the constitution are at odds.
    But the Constitution does not ask elected officials to serve their constituents. That is simply the "market forces" of electoral politics. The only obligation the Constitution presses on its officers with regard to the actual work is vague: "I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter." For an anti-tax increase pledge to conflict with that, you're contending that signing that pledge somehow undermines the "well and faithfully discharge" clause. Again, I don't see how there is a conflict.

    Furthermore, you are assuming a lot when you assert that signers of the pledge are "blind[ly]" swearing allegiance. I've analyzed available data, and thoughtfully come to the conclusion that tax increases are bad, and that we shouldn't increase taxes. If I signed Norquist's pledge, I wouldn't be doing it blindly. And just because Norquist wrote it, does not mean it is a pledge to him. If I wrote an identical pledge, and got representatives and senators to sign it, would that become a pledge to me?

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    Re: Who are Norquist pledge-signers loyal to - the American People or someone else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick2253 View Post
    But the Constitution does not ask elected officials to serve their constituents. That is simply the "market forces" of electoral politics. The only obligation the Constitution presses on its officers with regard to the actual work is vague: "I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter." For an anti-tax increase pledge to conflict with that, you're contending that signing that pledge somehow undermines the "well and faithfully discharge" clause. Again, I don't see how there is a conflict.

    Furthermore, you are assuming a lot when you assert that signers of the pledge are "blind[ly]" swearing allegiance. I've analyzed available data, and thoughtfully come to the conclusion that tax increases are bad, and that we shouldn't increase taxes. If I signed Norquist's pledge, I wouldn't be doing it blindly. And just because Norquist wrote it, does not mean it is a pledge to him. If I wrote an identical pledge, and got representatives and senators to sign it, would that become a pledge to me?
    these reps/senators draw their power from the 'people', these 'people' being their constituents , and their first loyalty should be to those constituents, not to some right wing special interest group...they are elected to represent 'all', not some, not a few, ALL of their constituents, it makes no sense to handicap yourself by signing pledges to special interest groups, when it can hinder your ability to do the job that your constituents elected you to. back in the day, both sides were able to work together to some degree, and (wait for it, here it comes, a nasty word to republicans/conservatives/tea partiers) Compromise on issues important to the country...by signing this 'pledge', these reps are effectively saying they will do no such thing, and that they will continue to watch as the country continues to go into the toilet fiscally....if we are to ever get our financial house in order , there will have to be spending cuts, and revenue increases(yes, tax increases) and signing this 'pledge' to norquist and his group puts these reps in a bind of having to explain themselves if the light clicks on for them and they realize that they will have to compromise and give on some tax increases to balance the budget...

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