View Poll Results: Is It Possible to Support the Middle Class WITHOUT Being an Individualist?

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Thread: Is It Possible to Support the Middle Class WITHOUT Being an Individualist?

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    Is It Possible to Support the Middle Class WITHOUT Being an Individualist?

    I was talking with coworkers last week about this issue, and we had a disagreement.

    My position is individualism and the middle class go hand in hand because it's only through individualism that social mobility is possible. Without individualism, the populace remains stuck as a community, and elites remain stuck as a community. There are no opportunities for status to be achieved on one's own merit. Rather people are only judged by the benevolence of their company. If you live among malevolent people, you have no shot at improvement without individualism because your community holds you back.

    One of my coworkers said individualism inhibits the middle class because it forgets that people need to be supported to get places. With individualism, people forget their roots, so there's nobody to support them. Even worse, it leads to a vicious rat race where everyone is constantly sabotaging each other for the measliest scraps of success. If you live among malevolent people, individualism screws you over because nobody behaves. It's only among benevolent people that you have a shot at being respected.

    I don't really understand my coworker's position, and frankly, I feel like he's just sucking up. The only way a community props up a hero is if individuals within it are intimidated into unawareness. That way, they sacrifice their own experience in order to support someone who's intimidating. The intimidating justify this by saying they have to maintain their support, but in reality, they're being selfish and exploiting good luck.

    As an aside, this is why I believe socialism is a conservative, not a liberal, ideology. Socialism relishes in the natural relations of production, saying those born with good luck are entitled to social status, discouraging people from developing potential just so those with developed potential can stay on top.

    Literally, socialism conserves the status quo.

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    Re: Is It Possible to Support the Middle Class WITHOUT Being an Individualist?

    From the op:
    One of my coworkers said individualism inhibits the middle class because it forgets that people need to be supported to get places. With individualism, people forget their roots, so there's nobody to support them. Even worse, it leads to a vicious rat race where everyone is constantly sabotaging each other for the measliest scraps of success. If you live among malevolent people, individualism screws you over because nobody behaves. It's only among benevolent people that you have a shot at being respected.
    People don't "need" to be supported to get places. Individualism doesn't make people forget their roots, and has nothing to do with support. One doesn't need respect in order to be an individualist, nor does individualism depend on benevolence. It depends on a system of legal protections, made by a group, which may or may not be made up of benevolent individuals. It sounds as if your coworker confuses benevolent individuals with legal systems.
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    Re: Is It Possible to Support the Middle Class WITHOUT Being an Individualist?

    I think both of you are correct.

    The primary issue in your discussion is that there is no one best way to do anything in life, but that best ways is dependent on whatever situation. Because of that and without going into too much detail because I got stuff to do this evening, there are times when both statements are true.

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    Re: Is It Possible to Support the Middle Class WITHOUT Being an Individualist?

    Yes of course

    Being an individualist would mean being selfish and being selfish tends to harm society, making the growth of the economy and middle class smaller then otherwise. Higher levels of community association and support all are factors in improving the size and status of the middle class. Either from being a mentor, or providing support to some in the community to attain higher levels of education, all are non indivualistic in actions and both will increase and support the middle class

    I would suggest looking at jewish American communities and how they tend to be supportive of other members in the community, and not being individualistic
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    Re: Is It Possible to Support the Middle Class WITHOUT Being an Individualist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Yes of course

    Being an individualist would mean being selfish and being selfish tends to harm society, making the growth of the economy and middle class smaller then otherwise. Higher levels of community association and support all are factors in improving the size and status of the middle class. Either from being a mentor, or providing support to some in the community to attain higher levels of education, all are non indivualistic in actions and both will increase and support the middle class

    I would suggest looking at jewish American communities and how they tend to be supportive of other members in the community, and not being individualistic
    My coworker's a Korean adopted by a Jewish family.

    It's very frustrating trying to work with him because he never does his own work. He's always trying to "collaborate" when in reality, he just flatters people into giving up trade secrets. If you don't, he tries to alienate you from the office, saying you're paranoid.

    My boss has caught wind of this a few times now, and we're going to have a performance evaluation at the end of the week dealing with our own accounts.

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    Re: Is It Possible to Support the Middle Class WITHOUT Being an Individualist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daktoria View Post
    My coworker's a Korean adopted by a Jewish family.

    It's very frustrating trying to work with him because he never does his own work. He's always trying to "collaborate" when in reality, he just flatters people into giving up trade secrets. If you don't, he tries to alienate you from the office, saying you're paranoid.

    My boss has caught wind of this a few times now, and we're going to have a performance evaluation at the end of the week dealing with our own accounts.
    Wow so you know a Korean adopted by a jewish family who is lazy

    And this is relevant how?
    Last edited by Lord Tammerlain; 05-15-12 at 12:46 AM.
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    Re: Is It Possible to Support the Middle Class WITHOUT Being an Individualist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Wow so you know a Korean adopted by a jewish family who is lazy

    And this is relevant how?
    How are you relevant?

    You said look at Jewish communities. I've been around this guy and his parents and family when at business gatherings.

    That's my experience. It isn't my job to live a life to prove your argument.

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    Re: Is It Possible to Support the Middle Class WITHOUT Being an Individualist?

    No pride here - this whole thread is above my head...thus makes no sense...
    IMO, a man , an individualist, can better support the middle class, if this "turns him on", gives him satsifaction......but this is difficult, sometimes impractical... often-times ineffective.

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    Re: Is It Possible to Support the Middle Class WITHOUT Being an Individualist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daktoria View Post
    I was talking with coworkers last week about this issue, and we had a disagreement.

    My position is individualism and the middle class go hand in hand because it's only through individualism that social mobility is possible. Without individualism, the populace remains stuck as a community, and elites remain stuck as a community. There are no opportunities for status to be achieved on one's own merit. Rather people are only judged by the benevolence of their company. If you live among malevolent people, you have no shot at improvement without individualism because your community holds you back.

    One of my coworkers said individualism inhibits the middle class because it forgets that people need to be supported to get places. With individualism, people forget their roots, so there's nobody to support them. Even worse, it leads to a vicious rat race where everyone is constantly sabotaging each other for the measliest scraps of success. If you live among malevolent people, individualism screws you over because nobody behaves. It's only among benevolent people that you have a shot at being respected.

    I don't really understand my coworker's position, and frankly, I feel like he's just sucking up. The only way a community props up a hero is if individuals within it are intimidated into unawareness. That way, they sacrifice their own experience in order to support someone who's intimidating. The intimidating justify this by saying they have to maintain their support, but in reality, they're being selfish and exploiting good luck.

    As an aside, this is why I believe socialism is a conservative, not a liberal, ideology. Socialism relishes in the natural relations of production, saying those born with good luck are entitled to social status, discouraging people from developing potential just so those with developed potential can stay on top.

    Literally, socialism conserves the status quo.
    Uhhh, wut????
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Is It Possible to Support the Middle Class WITHOUT Being an Individualist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Yes of course

    Being an individualist would mean being selfish and being selfish tends to harm society, making the growth of the economy and middle class smaller then otherwise. Higher levels of community association and support all are factors in improving the size and status of the middle class. Either from being a mentor, or providing support to some in the community to attain higher levels of education, all are non indivualistic in actions and both will increase and support the middle class

    I would suggest looking at jewish American communities and how they tend to be supportive of other members in the community, and not being individualistic
    People can engage in all the private social contracts they want.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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