View Poll Results: Is It Possible to Support the Middle Class WITHOUT Being an Individualist?

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Thread: Is It Possible to Support the Middle Class WITHOUT Being an Individualist?

  1. #11
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    Re: Is It Possible to Support the Middle Class WITHOUT Being an Individualist?

    Individualism making the middle class stronger and advancing to middle class sounds like great libertarian theory.

    It does fly in the face of a few facts however. The American middle class made it's most rapid gains, built a launching platform for it's offspring into many areas of work/ social status that now has it's children vilifying it's creator.

    Unions.

    Back when industry made America the leader in durable goods it was the rise of the factory floor worker from disposable parts to stable worker and thus eligible for house and vehicle loans that earlier tenement workers could never hope to obtain. The average factory worker couldn't go to the boss and get better conditions, safer methods, better pay and stable hours, medical when hurt- it took the entire factory floor demanding those things and fighting, bleeding and being scabbed before a massive new group of Americans could count on more than the sun rising tomorrow.

    Individuals could rise quicker do to connections, good ideas, or inventing the next must have widget but not the massive numbers needed to create a middle class.

    Now with the shift to salaried white collar worker the focus for some is on individual achievement over group accomplishment which has turned a few heads away from solidarity, which beat communism in Poland, to thrice deny strength in numbers. There is no I in team therefore these guys will not be team players.

    From what I've seen of corporate inner workings is the need is now more than ever for teamwork over individual stars.

    I'd say the lack of funding for team sports in schools and the concentration on computer games that compartmentalize off people is what is driving this new 'it's all about me' mentality...

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    Re: Is It Possible to Support the Middle Class WITHOUT Being an Individualist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daktoria View Post
    How are you relevant?

    You said look at Jewish communities. I've been around this guy and his parents and family when at business gatherings.

    That's my experience. It isn't my job to live a life to prove your argument.
    But you try to prove your point by providing an example set by one individual, which is of course a path to faluire.

    Example, Chinese people are all good at basketball, Jeremy Lin proves that. Is that not an idiotic assumption, is that not what you did when saying collabortors are lazy, by providing the example of your Korean, who was adopted by jewish people.

    True my example is a generalization of the American jewish community, but it is one that hold true for a large part of it. Not all jewish Americans are going to be community orientated and hard working, rather then being indiviualistic
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    Re: Is It Possible to Support the Middle Class WITHOUT Being an Individualist?

    Individualism is all about advancing the individual over the collective. "I'm the Alpha male and I'm better than others; I deserve to be at the top and I'll compete to get there." This is a philosophy for the elite. The middle class, by definition, is not made up of the elite.

    Collectivism is the philosophy for those that aren't the best and the brightest. It's a philosophy for the Betas pooling their relatively less exceptional assets to leverage an acceptably mediocre result for everyone.

    Individualism is the mechanism that impels the elites to the top; it offers the middle class no more support than Keira Knightley gets from wearing Kim Kardashian's bra.

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    Re: Is It Possible to Support the Middle Class WITHOUT Being an Individualist?

    There is no doubt success requires individual drive and merit. That is, of course, the modality of achievement. However, it is also true that no one is ever successful completely on their own. No one. We're a social species with a complex society and complex goals that by necessity require more resources than we completely alone are capable of. The number of ways that your life is held up by the community on a day-to-day basis is almost uncountable. This is just a true even for the richest, most successful person on the planet.

    It's both. In order to support the middle class, you must support the right of individuals to be successful on their own merit. But you also must support the social stability and cohesion that makes that possible.

    If you don't support the individual, then merit becomes meaningless and is sacrificed for a community ideal (ironically, disregarding individual merit also guarantees that you will never reach any such ideal). But if you don't support the community, then the framework that allows for a stable, developed society collapses, and social mobility collapses with it.

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    Re: Is It Possible to Support the Middle Class WITHOUT Being an Individualist?

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Individualism making the middle class stronger and advancing to middle class sounds like great libertarian theory.

    It does fly in the face of a few facts however. The American middle class made it's most rapid gains, built a launching platform for it's offspring into many areas of work/ social status that now has it's children vilifying it's creator.

    Unions.

    Back when industry made America the leader in durable goods it was the rise of the factory floor worker from disposable parts to stable worker and thus eligible for house and vehicle loans that earlier tenement workers could never hope to obtain. The average factory worker couldn't go to the boss and get better conditions, safer methods, better pay and stable hours, medical when hurt- it took the entire factory floor demanding those things and fighting, bleeding and being scabbed before a massive new group of Americans could count on more than the sun rising tomorrow.

    Individuals could rise quicker do to connections, good ideas, or inventing the next must have widget but not the massive numbers needed to create a middle class.

    Now with the shift to salaried white collar worker the focus for some is on individual achievement over group accomplishment which has turned a few heads away from solidarity, which beat communism in Poland, to thrice deny strength in numbers. There is no I in team therefore these guys will not be team players.

    From what I've seen of corporate inner workings is the need is now more than ever for teamwork over individual stars.

    I'd say the lack of funding for team sports in schools and the concentration on computer games that compartmentalize off people is what is driving this new 'it's all about me' mentality...
    Absolutely a great post in my opinion and right on the mark. Americans have forgotten what started the labor movement in this country, they have forgotten how workers when they were INDIVIDUALISTS were used like dishrags by employers.
    We have slid back to the days were the EMPLOYERS have convinced employees that being an individual in the workplace is the way to get ahead....when the real truth is...individualism produces far less for everyone and very few can even possibly be successful and the employers just love that. It keeps everyones pay in the toilet and theirs soaring.

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    Re: Is It Possible to Support the Middle Class WITHOUT Being an Individualist?

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Individualism making the middle class stronger and advancing to middle class sounds like great libertarian theory.

    It does fly in the face of a few facts however. The American middle class made it's most rapid gains, built a launching platform for it's offspring into many areas of work/ social status that now has it's children vilifying it's creator.

    Unions.

    Back when industry made America the leader in durable goods it was the rise of the factory floor worker from disposable parts to stable worker and thus eligible for house and vehicle loans that earlier tenement workers could never hope to obtain. The average factory worker couldn't go to the boss and get better conditions, safer methods, better pay and stable hours, medical when hurt- it took the entire factory floor demanding those things and fighting, bleeding and being scabbed before a massive new group of Americans could count on more than the sun rising tomorrow.

    Individuals could rise quicker do to connections, good ideas, or inventing the next must have widget but not the massive numbers needed to create a middle class.

    Now with the shift to salaried white collar worker the focus for some is on individual achievement over group accomplishment which has turned a few heads away from solidarity, which beat communism in Poland, to thrice deny strength in numbers. There is no I in team therefore these guys will not be team players.

    From what I've seen of corporate inner workings is the need is now more than ever for teamwork over individual stars.

    I'd say the lack of funding for team sports in schools and the concentration on computer games that compartmentalize off people is what is driving this new 'it's all about me' mentality...
    I've read the union line over and over, and I still don't get it. Unions are about seniority and keeping people in the working class rather than granting people social mobility. Anyone who succeeds is expected to sacrifice into the group, and the group wastes the sacrifice in taking pride in struggle.

    Do you have any stories to share about unions actually propping people up?

  7. #17
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    Re: Is It Possible to Support the Middle Class WITHOUT Being an Individualist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daktoria View Post
    I've read the union line over and over, and I still don't get it. Unions are about seniority and keeping people in the working class rather than granting people social mobility. Anyone who succeeds is expected to sacrifice into the group, and the group wastes the sacrifice in taking pride in struggle.

    Do you have any stories to share about unions actually propping people up?

    your wrong...anyone that gets offered a promotion and accepts it leaves the union...period, the same people get promoted in the same numbers whether theres a union or not.
    Police Officers are in unions...be it the PBA or FOP or any of the others...the make sgt they leave the Patrolmens Union and go into the supervisors union if there is one..same when the make Lt they go into the superior officers association if there is one...Captains and above usually have no union...

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    Re: Is It Possible to Support the Middle Class WITHOUT Being an Individualist?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChunkySalsa View Post
    Individualism is all about advancing the individual over the collective. "I'm the Alpha male and I'm better than others; I deserve to be at the top and I'll compete to get there." This is a philosophy for the elite. The middle class, by definition, is not made up of the elite.

    Collectivism is the philosophy for those that aren't the best and the brightest. It's a philosophy for the Betas pooling their relatively less exceptional assets to leverage an acceptably mediocre result for everyone.

    Individualism is the mechanism that impels the elites to the top; it offers the middle class no more support than Keira Knightley gets from wearing Kim Kardashian's bra.
    I really don't agree with this at all.

    Collectives are lead by alphas who desire to be admired by a pack. Betas fall in line because if they don't, they get left out in the cold and targeted.

    If anything, individualism is the key for beta social mobility because they aren't expected to sacrifice for the most popular people around.

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    Re: Is It Possible to Support the Middle Class WITHOUT Being an Individualist?

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    your wrong...anyone that gets offered a promotion and accepts it leaves the union...period, the same people get promoted in the same numbers whether theres a union or not.
    That doesn't do much good for their social life does it?

    Furthermore, I'm not sure how this guarantees that people will support each other to get promoted in the first place. If anything, people would be expected to hold back in order to hang out with their friends.

    Police Officers are in unions...be it the PBA or FOP or any of the others...the make sgt they leave the Patrolmens Union and go into the supervisors union if there is one..same when the make Lt they go into the superior officers association if there is one...Captains and above usually have no union...
    I guess this proves the effectiveness of unions in negotiating with government, but what about business?

    (I'm not sure how civil servant unions are indicative of community either since government exists on behalf of taxpayers. Why are workers organizing against taxpayers?)

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    Re: Is It Possible to Support the Middle Class WITHOUT Being an Individualist?

    Yawn...

    Nappy time.

    It's GREAT to be me. --- "45% liberal/55% conservative"
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