View Poll Results: Which candidate will create equality?

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  • Candidate 1 (civil unions)

    1 3.70%
  • Candidate 2 (government redefinition of marriage to include gay marriage)

    6 22.22%
  • Candidate 3 (government defined marriage'j as one man, one woman)

    5 18.52%
  • Candidate 4 (get government out of marriage)

    15 55.56%
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Thread: True equality

  1. #1
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    True equality

    Equality has been the buzzword in the news lately thanks to a million dollar, forced decision by the President to finally admit to the view we all know he's had on gay marriage since way before 2008. But when equality and separation of church and state are discussed in relation to gay marriage, I think there is way too much social and media hype for people to actually understand the conversation. There are many who say that gay couples are not being treated equally until the government recognizes gay marriage, even if the government allows civil unions.


    To challenge our thinking on equality, I have an analogy. Here it is:


    A country is founded on our basic constitutional principles, but is founded by Jewish colonists. The government is established by the Jewish settlers and the country begins primarily as a Jewish country. However, the country soon becomes diverse with Gentiles moving in. Still, Bar Mitzvah certificates are used as part of the census process going back traditionally to the country's founding.



    Due to drinking problems in the country, a law is passed that drinking is only allowed by individuals who have come of age by proof of a Bar Mitzvah certificate. This creates an obvious inequality because now only Jewish adults can drink. In the upcoming election, four candidates have offered a solution to this inequality. Here is the question: which view brings this fictitious community to true equality?



    Candidate #1 offers to create a non Bar Mitzvah coming of age certificate. This certificate could be issued to Gentiles who have reached the right age and apply for it.


    Candidate #2 offers to redefine the Bar Mitzvah ceremony to include Jews and Gentiles.


    Candidate #3 agrees to extend the drinking age to anyone who reaches 13, but also wishes to make the government define Bar Mitzvah as a distinctly Jewish ceremony.


    Candidate #4 will get rid of the drinking age and census tracking of adulthood altogether.
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  2. #2
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    Re: True equality

    I really don't understand why more people don't advocate removing government from marriage altogether. From a government stand point it is an antiquated practice. Since people have kids out of wedlock these days like it's nothing what's the point of a marriage license? To keep people from marrying their cousin? Why? they can screw anyway and make babies.
    The other problem I have is people that will scream separation of church and state to justify not outlawing SS marriages BUT have no problem with most marriages being performed by a member of clergy and accepted by the state. Hello....
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    Re: True equality

    The only way to create equality in marriage is to eliminate government from marriage and stop fighting over who gets special benefits for being in a relationship.

    And yes get rid of the legal drink age law. No one follows it so all it does is make people feel good that want to feel like they support something that people should follow. They can do that by supporting it and it not being a law all the same.

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    Re: True equality

    I would go with candidate 1 but you equate it with civil unions. My wife and I had a purely secular wedding and we have an actual marriage certificate even though at no point was any church, clergy member, or the mention of a god ever involved. And yet it is a marriage and not a civil union.

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    Re: True equality

    First, despite the hype, marriage is not a mainly religious thing. It has existed outside of religion for much longer than it existed in it, and that goes for any religion.

    Second, in order for the government to get out of marriage they would also have to get out of recognizing any family relationships and give no benefits or rights to people just for being blood related. This is even less likely to happen than getting the government out of marriage, so lets just keep marriage and at the same time work towards ensuring that it is fairly available for everyone without causing more problems.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: True equality

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post

    Second, in order for the government to get out of marriage they would also have to get out of recognizing any family relationships and give no benefits or rights to people just for being blood related. This is even less likely to happen than getting the government out of marriage, so lets just keep marriage and at the same time work towards ensuring that it is fairly available for everyone without causing more problems.
    I find your compromise just a way to expand the government. No thanks.

    That is not to say I'm not for equality, but giving more people special benefits is not how that is done. All you doing is expanding the problem.
    Last edited by Henrin; 05-11-12 at 12:30 AM.

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    Re: True equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    I really don't understand why more people don't advocate removing government from marriage altogether. From a government stand point it is an antiquated practice. Since people have kids out of wedlock these days like it's nothing what's the point of a marriage license? To keep people from marrying their cousin? Why? they can screw anyway and make babies.
    The other problem I have is people that will scream separation of church and state to justify not outlawing SS marriages BUT have no problem with most marriages being performed by a member of clergy and accepted by the state. Hello....

    Yanno...maybe thats just what needs to be done...pass it either way and let it go to supreme court and just get it over...and whatever happens everyone has to live with either way...but this constant stabbing and jabbin and nitpicking and arguing and back and forth and name calling and etc etc etc...just makes the two sides harder and more resolved...someone needs to take the intitiative on an national lvl...let it get challenged and let the chips fall where they fall...

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    Re: True equality

    The hell does gay marriage have to do with equality? Human equality in itself is just part of social egalitarianism, and is hardly realistic.
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    Re: True equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    I find your compromise just a way to expand the government. No thanks.

    That is not to say I'm not for equality, but giving more people special benefits is not how that is done. All you doing is expanding the problem.
    You most likely won't have a choice in this. I'm willing to bet that the SC will have the final say and they will eventually take anti-ssm laws down for the principles that I addressed.

    Marriage is the only current way to make someone who is not closely enough related to you a legal relative when they are an adult. And it does so in a way that makes the chosen person the closest legal relative, which comes with its own rights and responsibilities. You are just simply not going to get the government out of marriage or family relationships any time soon. I see this as a plus. We have to have a way that doesn't require a lot of legal paperwork (which would mean a lot of wasted money to lawyers and/or notaries) to make a chosen person more important when it comes to legal/medical/end of life decisions we can't make on our own than blood relationships, which are basically you get what you get.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: True equality

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You most likely won't have a choice in this. I'm willing to bet that the SC will have the final say and they will eventually take anti-ssm laws down for the principles that I addressed.
    How does that even address anything I said? I don't care.

    Marriage is the only current way to make someone who is not closely enough related to you a legal relative when they are an adult.
    That is not even important.

    And it does so in a way that makes the chosen person the closest legal relative, which comes with its own rights and responsibilities.
    So what? Why does this even matter?

    You are just simply not going to get the government out of marriage or family relationships any time soon. I see this as a plus. We have to have a way that doesn't require a lot of legal paperwork (which would mean a lot of wasted money to lawyers and/or notaries) to make a chosen person more important when it comes to legal/medical/end of life decisions we can't make on our own than blood relationships, which are basically you get what you get.
    I still don't see a problem. You are basically just asking the government to bail you out because of troubles you don't want to go through. Government is not there for such purposes. That is where you come in. Sorry, but your bull**** is extremely thick.
    Last edited by Henrin; 05-11-12 at 12:45 AM.

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