View Poll Results: Are you pro life or pro choice

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  • Pro Life

    22 31.88%
  • Pro Choice

    47 68.12%
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Thread: Are you pro life or pro choice

  1. #41
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcogito View Post
    I am pro-choice. When it comes to personhood the only thing I give a damn about is if the organism has a mind. Be it an embryo, a baby born without a brain, a brain-dead adult, or a corpse, if there is no mind then it is just a meat sack. Sorry if that comes across as blunt, but we can argue the semantics and legal definitions of "human life", "human being", or "person" but I don't give a damn about definitions. If it doesn't have a mind, if it isn't sentient, then it has as much claim to rights as a rock has.

    Late term abortions are another story as a fully formed fetus has a developed brain and even dreams. It has a mind. In those cases I only believe abortion should be legal in cases where the mother's life is in danger. It's triage. And fortunately, it is rare.
    I go by evolution. If the organism is left to its own, how will it develop. Will it develop a brain? Then that's that. It's a creature capable of that, it's just us at an earlier stage in life. The brain is an important organ, sometimes a baby won't develop one. Evolution over at that point. Humans have always been about potential.
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I reject the terms Pro-life and Pro-choice as being inaccurate spin.
    Really?

    I get your stance, to a point, but at hte same time it at least readily identifies each group by the nomeclature that group generally chooses to use and best reflects the actual basis for the majority of those on that side's view.

    I was actually going to applaud navy for putting "Pro-Choice" and not "Pro-Abortion" or somtehing of the sort. So many people ridiculsouly on both sides attempt to change the other sides designation as a means to insult, belittle, and switch up context and it was nice to see for once someone didn't do that.

    I would say personally I am pro-life. I am an individual that believes there are legitimate exceptions and also believe that the issue is so opinion based in nature with no true sound way to unquestionably determine such an answer that it is more in line with our Constitution to allow it to be decided on a State by State level rather than by a one size fits all federal fiat.

  3. #43
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I go by evolution. If the organism is left to its own, how will it develop. Will it develop a brain? Then that's that. It's a creature capable of that, it's just us at an earlier stage in life. The brain is an important organ, sometimes a baby won't develop one. Evolution over at that point. Humans have always been about potential.
    I don't care what it might be in the future or what it was in the past. I care what it is.

  4. #44
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcogito View Post
    I don't care what it might be in the future or what it was in the past. I care what it is.
    In that case, I can't see why you don't support "abortion" following birth either. A human newborn is not independent, it is not a significantly sentient entity, it is not a significantly sapient entity. It is a highly efficient, crying, milk-to-poop engine that requires a great deal of maintenance.

    A human neonate is less aware of its surroundings and less capable of judgement than what you may have had for dinner last night.



    My solution to this dilemma is quite simple, of course, a living human has intrinsic value; sapience is a hallmark of our species. It is not present at conception; it is not present at birth, but because we are a sapient species, all Homo sapiens have intrinsic value, and all should be equal in the eyes of the law.

    I have yet to see the distinguished opposition present a cogent solution to the dilemma.
    Last edited by JayDubya; 05-10-12 at 10:37 AM.

  5. #45
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    In that case, I can't see why you don't support "abortion" following birth either. A human newborn is not independent, it is not a significantly sentient entity, it is not a significantly sapient entity.
    It is significantly sentient for me. It has a mind. It senses its environment. It learns and remembers. Even a late stage fetus dreams. Yes, the thoughts are VERY rudimentary, but thought occurs nonetheless.

    A human neonate is less aware of its surroundings and less capable of judgement than what you may have had for dinner last night.
    Not likely, since I am vegan. And not wanting to kill things with minds if I can avoid it is one of the reasons I am vegan.

    My solution to this dilemma is quite simple, of course, a living human has intrinsic value; sapience is a hallmark of our species. It is not present at conception; it is not present at birth, but because we are a sapient species, all Homo sapiens have intrinsic value, and all should be equal in the eyes of the law.

    I have yet to see the distinguished opposition present a cogent solution to the dilemma.
    Since my interpretation of the science leads me to believe that sentience IS present at birth and even for a bit before birth, your solution doesn't solve anything in my mind. My stance is the most intellectually honest one I can take. Until a fetus develops to the point of having a mind it is just a cluster of tissue with no more right to remain in the woman's body than an appendix.
    Last edited by Sarcogito; 05-10-12 at 11:39 AM. Reason: typo

  6. #46
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice

    Morally pro-life, legally pro-choice.

    Basically I don't think the government should get invovled in matters of sexual morality. I think it's morally abhorrent, but none of the government's business.


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    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
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    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

  7. #47
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    The honest answer would be probably "neither" or "somewhere in between."
    Quote Originally Posted by Josie View Post
    I'm for life and for choice.

    Can we get a more specific question?

    Pro-life is opposition to legalized abortion.Pro-choice is the supporting or advocating of legalized abortion. Pro-choice is the polar opposite of pro-life.So there is no in-between or both choice.

    Pro-life | Define Pro-life at Dictionary.com
    opposed to legalized abortion; right-to-life.

    Pro-choice | Define Pro-choice at Dictionary.com
    supporting or advocating legalized abortion.
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  8. #48
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcogito View Post
    It is significantly sentient for me. It has a mind. It senses its environment. It learns and remembers. Even a late stage fetus dreams. Yes, the thoughts are VERY rudimentary, but thought occurs nonetheless.

    Not likely, since I am vegan. And not wanting to kill things with minds if I can avoid it is one of the reasons I am vegan.
    While your dietary habits make the discussion somewhat more interesting on the periphery, the point I made was more resilient than that, I'm afraid. You still MAY have had an animal with a rudimentary mind for dinner last night. In other words, those creatures have no rights, are property, and are killed for food. Or perhaps another comparison is warranted to say, a common domestic pet like a cat or a dog. Again, an adult cat or dog can demonstrate more judgment (sapience) and awareness (sentience) than a human neonate, yet they are property.

    Despite this, the neonate is not property and cannot be killed for food. If we are to be consistent, it could only be due to presumption of intrinsic value, as the qualities of the organism do not demonstrate superiority in these relevant factors for consideration, at least, not at the age in question. So the question remains that if the neonate has intrinsic value for nothing more than being a human, why not a fetus? Why not an embryo?
    Last edited by JayDubya; 05-10-12 at 12:18 PM.

  9. #49
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice

    See, technically, everyone would claim to favor "life" and "choice," which is part of why the terms pro-life and pro-choice are misleading and stupid.


    Furthermore, there is no such thing as "personally anti-abortion, but..."

    That is like saying "I would not personally buy a slave, but who other people choose to buy is none of my business." Such a person supports the legality of slavery. An abolitionist of slavery would not consider such a person to be an ally, literally or intellectually.
    Last edited by JayDubya; 05-10-12 at 12:10 PM.

  10. #50
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    See, technically, everyone would claim to favor "life" and "choice," which is part of why the terms pro-life and pro-choice are misleading and stupid.

    Furthermore, there is no such thing as "personally anti-abortion, but..."

    That is like saying "I would not personally buy a slave, but who other people choose to buy is none of my business." Such a person supports the legality of slavery. An abolitionist of slavery would not consider such a person to be an ally, literally or intellectually.
    Sorry but you're wrong. My wife and I, for instance, wouldn't have an abortion, except in specific circumstances. We talked about it long ago. It's a decision we made. What other people do isn't our business. That's the whole point of choice, giving each person or couple the right to choose what they do.
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