View Poll Results: Are you pro life or pro choice

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  • Pro Life

    22 31.88%
  • Pro Choice

    47 68.12%
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Thread: Are you pro life or pro choice

  1. #111
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Both sides support women's reproductive rights to some degree. Ultimately, it comes down to one side saying that the fetus' hypothetical right to life trumps the woman's reproductive rights while th eotehr side disagrees that fetuses have a right to life which can trump the woman's reproductive rights.
    Not really. Depending on the group, they can want absolutely no reproductive rights, the woman exists as a brood mare. No birth control, no sex education and the woman isn't even allowed to say no to her husband. Where are the reproductive rights there?
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  2. #112
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Not really. Depending on the group, they can want absolutely no reproductive rights, the woman exists as a brood mare. No birth control, no sex education and the woman isn't even allowed to say no to her husband. Where are the reproductive rights there?
    And there there those that want absolutely no human rights for the unborn who will allow for partial birth abortions. If it's about reproductive rights why can't men abort their right to fatherhood? You have the choice to use contraception and birth control, and you chose to have sex (which obviously may result in pregnancy). Reproductive "rights" end at conception when another life has been created by your choices and decision to engage in intercourse.
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  3. #113
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Not really. Depending on the group, they can want absolutely no reproductive rights, the woman exists as a brood mare. No birth control, no sex education and the woman isn't even allowed to say no to her husband. Where are the reproductive rights there?
    Those are the exception rather than the rule.

    Whereas there is no doubt that people who are in favor of legalized abortion are opposed to granting fetuses rights, while those who oppose legalized abortion are in favor of granting fetuses rights. It's the person-hood decision by the SC boiled down in to shorthand. In general, the US court system places right to life issues ahead of all other rights issues. when exercising your rights infringe upon another right to life, it will always be the "lesser" right (i.e. non-right-to-life right) that is infringed upon.
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  4. #114
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice

    My answer to that line of reasoning is thus: should it be banned nationwide? Sure. It's a human rights abuse. To the best extent possible, it should be stamped out across the world.

    Can it be banned nationwide, in keeping with our rule of law? No, no more than it can be imposed upon the entire nation, at least, not without abandoning the rule of law, as our Supreme Court did in 1973.

    To ban it nationwide would require a constitutional amendment. And such a thing should be passed. But until it is, the matter falls to federalism, state by state, in keeping with the 10th Amendment. At least, again, if you want to follow the rule of law.

  5. #115
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    And there there those that want absolutely no human rights for the unborn who will allow for partial birth abortions. If it's about reproductive rights why can't men abort their right to fatherhood? You have the choice to use contraception and birth control, and you chose to have sex (which obviously may result in pregnancy). Reproductive "rights" end at conception when another life has been created by your choices and decision to engage in intercourse.
    the issue of reproductive rights is really a red herring because if the fetus has a right to life, it's right to life would supersede a woman's reproductive rights. If it doesn't have a right to life, then nothing supersedes the woman's reproductive rights.

    The woman's reproductive rights do exist in both scenarios.
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  6. #116
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    the issue of reproductive rights is really a red herring because if the fetus has a right to life, it's right to life would supersede a woman's reproductive rights. If it doesn't have a right to life, then nothing supersedes the woman's reproductive rights.

    The woman's reproductive rights do exist in both scenarios.
    I agree. My premise is that as human life, the fetus deserves human rights even if it isn't eligible for citizenship. I'm all for women and men exercising reproductive rights, but I don't feel that it is their right to abort due to the fact that what they perceive as their right is a decision that infringes upon another human life in the most drastic way possible (death). For me, the abortion debate is ethically extending human rights to the unborn which would result in the banning of elective abortions due to the procedure violating the greater human right of life verses what others call reproductive rights. Reproductive rights still exist, it's just drawing the line to where your rights begin to infringe upon another human's rights with that line being at implantation.
    Last edited by digsbe; 05-11-12 at 12:09 PM.
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  7. #117
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    I agree. My premise is that as human life, the fetus deserves human rights even if it isn't eligible for citizenship. I'm all for women and men exercising reproductive rights, but I don't feel that it is their right to abort due to the fact that what they perceive as their right is a decision that infringes upon another human life in the most drastic way possible (death). For me, the abortion debate is ethically extending human rights to the unborn which would result in the banning of elective abortions due to the procedure violating the greater human right of life verses what others call reproductive rights.
    The problem is that you are using circular and unclear reasoning. "Because it is human, it deserves human rights, therefore it should be given human rights" is really just stating the same thing in three different ways.

    As far as why it is unclear: What is a human, exactly? Why do humans deserve human rights? Do all humans universally deserve human rights? What is a human right?

    The problem is that the most honest answers to those questions will, more than likely, lead to a conflict and contradiction in the initial argument about fetuses deserving human rights.
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 05-11-12 at 12:13 PM.
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  8. #118
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Those are the exception rather than the rule.

    Whereas there is no doubt that people who are in favor of legalized abortion are opposed to granting fetuses rights, while those who oppose legalized abortion are in favor of granting fetuses rights. It's the person-hood decision by the SC boiled down in to shorthand. In general, the US court system places right to life issues ahead of all other rights issues. when exercising your rights infringe upon another right to life, it will always be the "lesser" right (i.e. non-right-to-life right) that is infringed upon.
    I don't know that those are exceptions honestly. Most people I see who are anti-abortion aren't doing it because they think fetuses deserve rights, but because they think abortion goes against the will of an imaginary man in the sky. Rights of any kind simply don't enter into it. Half of these people aren't even happy with women having rights.
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  9. #119
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I don't know that those are exceptions honestly. Most people I see who are anti-abortion aren't doing it because they think fetuses deserve rights, but because they think abortion goes against the will of an imaginary man in the sky. Rights of any kind simply don't enter into it. Half of these people aren't even happy with women having rights.
    They think that it goes against the will of said sky-person due to the fact that said sky person has allegedly granted those fetuses a right to life. Just because god is a preliminary premise doesn't mean it isn't ultimately about fetal rights.
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  10. #120
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    Re: Are you pro life or pro choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    They think that it goes against the will of said sky-person due to the fact that said sky person has allegedly granted those fetuses a right to life. Just because god is a preliminary premise doesn't mean it isn't ultimately about fetal rights.
    Of course it isn't, if you ask most of these people, the concept of fetal rights isn't even on their radar. It's not even in their vocabulary. Their whole argument starts and ends with make-believe sky-daddy. You can't just rationalize "this is what they really mean". There really is no rational case that can be made for fetal rights anyhow, otherwise you'd be putting women in prison for miscarriages and failing to provide a healthy environment for a fetus. It makes no sense to say "we're for fetal rights, but only in this very specific, very narrow case".
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