View Poll Results: What does Libertarian Party need to happen for them to move forward..

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  • Develop a base? (i.e.: local, state, Congress, etc.)

    15 53.57%
  • Elect a President without a base?

    0 0%
  • Be included in Presidential debates?

    10 35.71%
  • Carry 10%+ of the Presidental popular vote?

    4 14.29%
  • Other

    14 50.00%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: What does Libertarian Party need to happen for them to move forward...

  1. #131
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    Re: What does Libertarian Party need to happen for them to move forward...

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Access to debates, which are funded privately, is not guaranteed. However, get enough support and guess what will happen...
    Yes but the elections are public and the way the parties act, would be illegal in other circumstances.
    Get enough support?
    That's a joke.

    Ross Perot was denied access (the second time) and he had, "enough support."
    Third parties aren't allowed because the 2 main parties do not want the competition.



    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    From the Libertarian Party Platform(Platform | Libertarian Party)
    Nothing in that quote means, "unregulated."


    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    And what I am saying is that comes off as arrogant(because it is) and is not accurate.
    Which is more likely to have the bandwagon effect?
    A small, not very well known party, which doesn't have the funds to advertise nationwide and is generally supported in a grass roots manner or a a party with implicit government subsidy, that is very well known and has the funds to advertise on every major tv, radio and internet source in America?

    It's not arrogant, it's a statement of fact.
    The major parties are more likely to have superficial members, because they already have a large base.
    That doesn't even take into account that many voters are already superficial voters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    If you do not see the problem with this type of whining, you are never going to get it. This is a big reason why the LP is not a significant force in politics, who wants to hang out with arrogant, drugged up whiners? And that is the image of the LP. If you want to get anywhere, you have to get the support to get on the privately funded(funny, free market, until it suits you to deny the rights of private organizations) debates to be forced to give your guy debate time. But when your guy is getting 1 % of the vote, it would be stupid and a disservice to voters to put your guy in the debates. The problem is not the process, it is that you guys are spending your time complaining and not getting the support you need.
    I've given you evidence, that it isn't whining.
    The fact that Ross Perot, "had enough support" (your standard, not mine) but was denied access, gives credence, that political shenanigans has more to do with the presidential election system, than "whining" and "playing the victim."

    I do not believe in private control of the public system of elections.
    They have a cartel on the presidential debates.
    It's not free market.

    If our people are so stupid and worthless, allowing us access to the debates, would be of no consequence.
    I mean, being stupid and all, our rear ends would surely be whooped.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  2. #132
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    Re: What does Libertarian Party need to happen for them to move forward...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    You know, I think your right, I don't think companies who offered faulty products or crappy service have ever failed by being rejected by the customer. </sarcasm>

    Take however many nations which have had revolutions, and multiply that by a thousand, and you probably still have a number substantially lower than the number of companies that have fallen to the wayside due to lack of adaptation to their consumer base.
    We're not talking about crappy companies providing crappy services. We're talking about holding private companies liable for negative behavior not directly related to their products. If Sorny makes cheap knock off TVs that explode when your turn the channel, yes, that company will fail because of their shoddy products.

    We're not talking about providing good services directly to customers. We're talking about holding a private company accountable for their indirect costs to society. If a company pollutes and you live in a Libertarian utopia, what resources to have to stop the pollution? Take United Carbide Limited in Bhopal. Their pollution disaster in 1984 killed almost 4,000 people. The community had almost zero means to hold UCL responsible, and any action they did take was crushed by the corporation's vast resources. India at the time had very little government infrastructure to respond to and investigate the disaster, let alone hold the company responsible This is a worst case example of when private power can overrun the people of a given nation.

  3. #133
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    Re: What does Libertarian Party need to happen for them to move forward...

    Quote Originally Posted by RadicalModerate View Post
    We're not talking about crappy companies providing crappy services. We're talking about holding private companies liable for negative behavior not directly related to their products. If Sorny makes cheap knock off TVs that explode when your turn the channel, yes, that company will fail because of their shoddy products.

    We're not talking about providing good services directly to customers. We're talking about holding a private company accountable for their indirect costs to society. If a company pollutes and you live in a Libertarian utopia, what resources to have to stop the pollution? Take United Carbide Limited in Bhopal. Their pollution disaster in 1984 killed almost 4,000 people. The community had almost zero means to hold UCL responsible, and any action they did take was crushed by the corporation's vast resources. India at the time had very little government infrastructure to respond to and investigate the disaster, let alone hold the company responsible This is a worst case example of when private power can overrun the people of a given nation.
    Look at BP and Apple. Both companies are facing significant boycotts because of their environment and labor practices, respectively. Almost all Tuna Cans are labeled with "Dolphin Safe" because those companies have now adopted dolphin safe fishing practices due to backlash from consumers.

    People have and will hold corporations responsible for externalities.

  4. #134
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    Re: What does Libertarian Party need to happen for them to move forward...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick2253 View Post
    Look at BP and Apple. Both companies are facing significant boycotts because of their environment and labor practices, respectively. Almost all Tuna Cans are labeled with "Dolphin Safe" because those companies have now adopted dolphin safe fishing practices due to backlash from consumers.

    People have and will hold corporations responsible for externalities.
    This question is can you shut down an unpopular company doing damaging things. Lizzie argues that thee is no need for regulation because if people don't like how a company operates, maybe it pollutes a great deal or makes unsafe products, simply by shrinking their demand they can shut down the company. That is complete nonsense and it seems everyone here with some reasoning abilities knows it.

    To answer your points, "dolphin safe" labels are a joke and that's pretty well known. Lots of dolphins are still caught by fishing nets. Not much of change, is it? Second, Apple and BP are facing boycotts; so what? I'd bet Apple responds to public pressure, but if you can show me any actual, measurable difference in practices by BP from public outrage, I'd love to see it. They don't need to. What kind of actual financial impact do you think a thousand people boycotting BP will do? Ten thousand? A million? I'm trying to find a number that might be the point where it starts to make BP taker notice. I'm sure it's more than a few million. BP has so much income coming in from so many different sources, they are completely insulated from outside pressure.

    To think that replacing government regulation with boycotts and public pressure is the best choice...man, what are some people smoking?

    Companies are not liable to the public. Government, at least in principle, is.
    Last edited by RadicalModerate; 05-09-12 at 09:29 PM.

  5. #135
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    Re: What does Libertarian Party need to happen for them to move forward...

    Quote Originally Posted by RadicalModerate View Post
    This question is can you shut down an unpopular company doing damaging things. Lizzie argues that thee is no need for regulation because if people don't like how a company operates, maybe it pollutes a great deal or makes unsafe products, simply by shrinking their demand they can shut down the company. That is complete nonsense and it seems everyone here with some reasoning abilities knows it.

    To answer your points, "dolphin safe" labels are a joke and that's pretty well known. Lots of dolphins are still caught by fishing nets. Not much of change, is it? Second, Apple and BP are facing boycotts; so what? I'd bet Apple responds to public pressure, but if you can show me any actual, measurable difference in practices by BP from public outrage, I'd love to see it. They don't need to. What kind of actual financial impact do you think a thousand people boycotting BP will do? Ten thousand? A million? I'm trying to find a number that might be the point where it starts to make BP taker notice. I'm sure it's more than a few million. BP has so much income coming in from so many different sources, they are completely insulated from outside pressure.

    To think that replacing government regulation with boycotts and public pressure is the best choice...man, what are some people smoking?

    Companies are not liable to the public. Government, at least in principle, is.
    Look at Apple. They have actively targeted Foxconn and so far changed the labor practices at their facility in China.

    "Dolphin safe" labels are not "a joke." NOAA (NOAA - National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration - Conserving & Restoring Natural Resources) has verified the effectiveness of these labels. In the fishing industry alone you see organizations like the Marine Stewardship Council (Marine Stewardship Council - home &mdash; MSC) who provide labeling to businesses and restaurants that meet certain sustainability standards, which has changed shopping habits for many consumers.

    In the middle of the BP oil spill, BP was donating money to Fish and Wildlife charities precisely because they were worried about their image.

    Businesses, unlike governments, don't have an army to force consumers to continue to consume their products, and so they evolve to provide better products and services. Governments have a tendency of not evolving, which is why you see bloody revolutions occur. Companies are just as liable to the public, but they don't drag their feet until they go out of business, because, well, that's just not good business.

  6. #136
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    Re: What does Libertarian Party need to happen for them to move forward...

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    That's anarchy, not libertarianism.
    What's the difference?


    What people tend to forget is that most libertarians are for a very strong judicial system. Besides, with something like somalia, you can't polish a turd. I challenge you to bring any system to that hell hole and show me your progress.
    If you eliminate the social safety net as Libertarians propose, you will have anarchy.


    I challenge you to show me any 1st world nation that follows the platform of the LP.
    Last edited by Catawba; 05-10-12 at 03:57 AM.
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  7. #137
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    Re: What does Libertarian Party need to happen for them to move forward...

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Hong Kong.

    Somalia is not "libertarian like."
    It's what ignorant people say, when they try to mock and ridicule my belief system.
    "The Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China, commonly the Hong Kong Government, is led by the Chief Executive as Head of the Government, who is also the head of the Hong Kong SAR. The affairs of the Government are decided by secretaries, who are appointed by the Chief Executive and endorsed by the Central People's Government in Beijing."

    Government of Hong Kong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  8. #138
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    Re: What does Libertarian Party need to happen for them to move forward...

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    What's the difference?
    Seriously? If you can't understand the difference, then why troll this thread? Wikipedia has great articles on the two political philosophies. Please read them.

    If you eliminate the social safety net as Libertarians propose, you will have anarchy.
    What? That's not an argument, that's a false assertion. We didn't have a safety net before FDR, and the US sure as hell wasn't an anarchist country.

    I challenge you to show me any 1st world nation that follows the platform of the LP.
    Hong Kong is pretty damn close.

  9. #139
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    Re: What does Libertarian Party need to happen for them to move forward...

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    "The Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China, commonly the Hong Kong Government, is led by the Chief Executive as Head of the Government, who is also the head of the Hong Kong SAR. The affairs of the Government are decided by secretaries, who are appointed by the Chief Executive and endorsed by the Central People's Government in Beijing."

    Government of Hong Kong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    What's your point? Simply because the government's official name has the "People's Republic of China" in it it's not libertarian? Economically, HK follows a system very similar to the LP's platform. Socially, HK is more restrictive in some ways.

  10. #140
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    Re: What does Libertarian Party need to happen for them to move forward...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick2253 View Post
    We didn't have a safety net before FDR, and the US sure as hell wasn't an anarchist country.
    We were predominantly an agrarian society then. We are no longer, and you would have rioting in the streets with millions without jobs or alternate source of survival.



    Hong Kong is pretty damn close.
    I must have missed the part of the Libertarian platform about becoming an arm of China.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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