View Poll Results: What does Libertarian Party need to happen for them to move forward..

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  • Develop a base? (i.e.: local, state, Congress, etc.)

    15 53.57%
  • Elect a President without a base?

    0 0%
  • Be included in Presidential debates?

    10 35.71%
  • Carry 10%+ of the Presidental popular vote?

    4 14.29%
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    14 50.00%
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Thread: What does Libertarian Party need to happen for them to move forward...

  1. #111
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    Re: What does Libertarian Party need to happen for them to move forward...

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    But they have no central government now, little regulation, freedom of gun ownership, very low tax rates, and no health insurance mandate.


    What country do you prefer that has a more Libertarian-like government than Somalia?
    Hong Kong.

    Somalia is not "libertarian like."
    It's what ignorant people say, when they try to mock and ridicule my belief system.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  2. #112
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    Re: What does Libertarian Party need to happen for them to move forward...

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    The only way the libertarian party will become any kind of force in US policy is if they change their platform and how they present themselves.
    I agree to an extent.
    The childish libertarians, tard it up for the rest of us.
    But the same can be said for Conservatives and Liberals.

    And they still get elected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    The Libertarian platform is not something that people are going to adopt in numbers nearly as highly as democratic or republican platforms. It goes too far in too many places to be popular. Without popular support, the Libertarian party is dead in the water. The other thing it does is cross common ideological lines. Pro-abortion rights and pro-laissez-faire economics means there is something for every one to hate.
    True enough.
    But not all libertarians believe in total unregulated markets, which is a common but fallacious criticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Presentation is probably the biggest thing however. Lets look at Ron Paul, the most recognizable person associated with the Libertarians. What are the two biggest issues associated with him? Auditing the fed and a gold type standard for currency. Almost no one cares about those issues. Paul starts droning on about the usual crap he talks about and people tune out in droves. If people do not think the LP cares about the same things they do, they are not going to support it.
    I agree with this too.
    Ron Paul needs to let go of the gold crap and beating up on the fed.
    The fed has probably been the one institution that has kept the idiot politicians from royally screwing everything up.

    Then again, when anyone goes into deep policy analysis, people tune out.
    That's why idiotic campaign slogans and promises are bandied about.


    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Without those fundamental changes, which would admittedly make it not the LP, then they are never going to be anything more than a fringe group. And that is not the fault of the two big parties, it is not the fault of the media, it is not because people are stupid, it is because the LP simply does not represent the values and issues of many people. It is their own fault.
    I disagree with this part for 2 reasons.

    The two parties control the most visual political race, Presidential.
    They control access to the debates, which can legitimize a candidate.

    People are rationally ignorant.
    Voters don't really research issues.
    This is commonly known, which is were "the people are stupid" comes from.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  3. #113
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    Re: What does Libertarian Party need to happen for them to move forward...

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I agree to an extent.
    The childish libertarians, tard it up for the rest of us.
    But the same can be said for Conservatives and Liberals.

    And they still get elected.
    They already have a base, and platforms that more readily fit into most people's idiologies. SOmething the LP lacks.


    True enough.
    But not all libertarians believe in total unregulated markets, which is a common but fallacious criticism.
    I maybe should have been a bit more clear. I was not talking total unregulated markets, but significantly mroe unregulated, which is part of the LP platform.


    I disagree with this part for 2 reasons.

    The two parties control the most visual political race, Presidential.
    They control access to the debates, which can legitimize a candidate.

    People are rationally ignorant.
    Voters don't really research issues.
    This is commonly known, which is were "the people are stupid" comes from.
    Which is still blaming others for "faults" in the LP. The problem is not the two parties. If a third party can come along with a platform that will get significant votes, and messengers who can interest people, the potential is there. Remember a guy names Ross Perot? If the LP wants more media coverage, it needs to attract people. If the LP wants to be credible in big elections, it needs to attract people. If the LP wants to move forward, they need to attract people. It is not the media and the two parties that is the reason why LP membership is relatively tiny. If the LP wants to move forward, the first thing it needs to do is stop blaming every one else and stop playing the victim.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  4. #114
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    Re: What does Libertarian Party need to happen for them to move forward...

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    They already have a base, and platforms that more readily fit into most people's idiologies. SOmething the LP lacks.
    LP has a base, it's just not big.
    Still though, the idiots in all camps, don't make the camps defunct by default.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I maybe should have been a bit more clear. I was not talking total unregulated markets, but significantly mroe unregulated, which is part of the LP platform.
    "Unregulated" is non specific.
    A hell of a lot of libertarians are policy wonks, where they want regulations, that take account of the unforeseen consequences.
    Something that isn't well understood.

    To always characterize it as "unregulated" isn't right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Which is still blaming others for "faults" in the LP. The problem is not the two parties. If a third party can come along with a platform that will get significant votes, and messengers who can interest people, the potential is there. Remember a guy names Ross Perot? If the LP wants more media coverage, it needs to attract people. If the LP wants to be credible in big elections, it needs to attract people. If the LP wants to move forward, they need to attract people. It is not the media and the two parties that is the reason why LP membership is relatively tiny. If the LP wants to move forward, the first thing it needs to do is stop blaming every one else and stop playing the victim.
    Sometimes, someone else is at fault.
    I've already agreed that the LP had it's own short comings.

    Do you even know the story of Ross Perot and the issue behind the debates.
    He won 18% of the popular vote, during his first race and was allowed to debate.

    The second time, they wouldn't allow him to debate.
    Who was at fault, when he had a significant amount of American support, yet wasn't allowed to debate?
    Was he just a phony victim?
    Last edited by Harry Guerrilla; 05-09-12 at 09:00 AM.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  5. #115
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    Re: What does Libertarian Party need to happen for them to move forward...

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    LP has a base, it's just not big.
    Still though, the idiots in all camps, don't make the camps defunct by default.
    LP has a base about 2 % the size of eitehr of the big two parties. That is not significant.



    "Unregulated" is non specific.
    A hell of a lot of libertarians are policy wonks, where they want regulations, that take account of the unforeseen consequences.
    Something that isn't well understood.

    To always characterize it as "unregulated" isn't right.
    Since we are going to play these little semantic games, let's just go with "less regulated". Those who tend to favor fewer regulations also as a general rule tend to be those more conservative on social issues. See the problem now?

    And the LP party has as many people who just want to be able to get high legally as they have "policy wonks". In fact, every party has policy wonks. It's little arrogant bits like that comment that make peopel not like the LP.



    Sometimes, someone else is at fault.
    I've already agreed that the LP had it's own short comings.

    Do you even know the story of Ross Perot and the issue behind the debates.
    He won 18% of the popular vote, during his first race and was allowed to debate.

    The second time, they wouldn't allow him to debate.
    Who was at fault, when he had a significant amount of American support, yet wasn't allowed to debate?
    Was he just a phony victim?
    And you miss the point. If you keep playing the victim, you will never, ever, have significant support. if you work towards appealing to people and getting a message out that people are interested in hearing, then you have a chance. Of course to do that you have to change what the LP is, or you need people to change their beliefs significantly(which ain't happening fast, but is happening).
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  6. #116
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    Re: What does Libertarian Party need to happen for them to move forward...

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    LP has a base about 2 % the size of eitehr of the big two parties. That is not significant.
    That does not legitimize exclusion from the political process.
    At least in terms of access to debates.


    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Since we are going to play these little semantic games, let's just go with "less regulated". Those who tend to favor fewer regulations also as a general rule tend to be those more conservative on social issues. See the problem now?

    And the LP party has as many people who just want to be able to get high legally as they have "policy wonks". In fact, every party has policy wonks. It's little arrogant bits like that comment that make peopel not like the LP.
    It's not semantic games, it's you really aren't understanding what the intent is.
    Reducing current regulations and replacing them, with effective and balanced regulations, that limit (previously) unforeseen externatilies, is quite a far cry from generalized "less regulations."

    I've never said that the other parties don't have people purely interested in technical policy.
    It's just that when you have larger party membership, you get more people who are interested in the politics for superficial reasons, rather than the technical.


    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    And you miss the point. If you keep playing the victim, you will never, ever, have significant support. if you work towards appealing to people and getting a message out that people are interested in hearing, then you have a chance. Of course to do that you have to change what the LP is, or you need people to change their beliefs significantly(which ain't happening fast, but is happening).
    You've already made your mind up on this.
    We're all playing the victim.

    Is the democratic process helped or hindered by carefully choreographer presidential debates, where the candidates are thrown softball questions and any potential competitor is excluded from the process, except the incumbent parties?

    This is usually illegal, in the market, so much so that the justice department will go after businesses, who purposefully act using "anti competitive" means to exclude competitors.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  7. #117
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    Re: What does Libertarian Party need to happen for them to move forward...

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Since we are going to play these little semantic games, let's just go with "less regulated". Those who tend to favor fewer regulations also as a general rule tend to be those more conservative on social issues. See the problem now?

    And the LP party has as many people who just want to be able to get high legally as they have "policy wonks". In fact, every party has policy wonks. It's little arrogant bits like that comment that make peopel not like the LP.
    What arrogant bits? On some level there are a few people who lash out against libertarinaism the was many anti-intellectuals lash out against university professors. It's not based in sound argument, but rather some perception that these educated people are all snide and condescending and can't really know anything "useful" and haven't done anything "useful", blah blah blah.

    For instance your argument about libertarian policy on regulation of market. There is a wide variety of ideals within the LP on that, but not all are ones of lax regulation. Many, including myself, call for proper regulation which means reinstalling some forgotten regulations while trying to eliminate the ones which hurt the free market. There are good regulation and bad regulation and currently we're maxing the bad. Just because we do strive to get rid of some regulation doesn't mean that we're looking to get rid of ALL regulation, or that we are ignoring PROPER regulation.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  8. #118
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    Re: What does Libertarian Party need to happen for them to move forward...

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    That does not legitimize exclusion from the political process.
    At least in terms of access to debates.
    Access to debates, which are funded privately, is not guaranteed. However, get enough support and guess what will happen...



    It's not semantic games, it's you really aren't understanding what the intent is.
    Reducing current regulations and replacing them, with effective and balanced regulations, that limit (previously) unforeseen externatilies, is quite a far cry from generalized "less regulations."
    From the Libertarian Party Platform(Platform | Libertarian Party)

    Libertarians want all members of society to have abundant opportunities to achieve economic
    success. A free and competitive market allocates resources in the most efficient manner. Each
    person has the right to offer goods and services to others on the free market. The only proper role of
    government in the economic realm is to protect property rights, adjudicate disputes, and provide a
    legal framework in which voluntary trade is protected. All efforts by government to redistribute
    wealth, or to control or manage trade, are improper in a free society.
    I've never said that the other parties don't have people purely interested in technical policy.
    It's just that when you have larger party membership, you get more people who are interested in the politics for superficial reasons, rather than the technical.
    And what I am saying is that comes off as arrogant(because it is) and is not accurate.




    You've already made your mind up on this.
    We're all playing the victim.

    Is the democratic process helped or hindered by carefully choreographer presidential debates, where the candidates are thrown softball questions and any potential competitor is excluded from the process, except the incumbent parties?

    This is usually illegal, in the market, so much so that the justice department will go after businesses, who purposefully act using "anti competitive" means to exclude competitors.
    If you do not see the problem with this type of whining, you are never going to get it. This is a big reason why the LP is not a significant force in politics, who wants to hang out with arrogant, drugged up whiners? And that is the image of the LP. If you want to get anywhere, you have to get the support to get on the privately funded(funny, free market, until it suits you to deny the rights of private organizations) debates to be forced to give your guy debate time. But when your guy is getting 1 % of the vote, it would be stupid and a disservice to voters to put your guy in the debates. The problem is not the process, it is that you guys are spending your time complaining and not getting the support you need.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  9. #119
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    Re: What does Libertarian Party need to happen for them to move forward...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    What arrogant bits? On some level there are a few people who lash out against libertarinaism the was many anti-intellectuals lash out against university professors. It's not based in sound argument, but rather some perception that these educated people are all snide and condescending and can't really know anything "useful" and haven't done anything "useful", blah blah blah.

    For instance your argument about libertarian policy on regulation of market. There is a wide variety of ideals within the LP on that, but not all are ones of lax regulation. Many, including myself, call for proper regulation which means reinstalling some forgotten regulations while trying to eliminate the ones which hurt the free market. There are good regulation and bad regulation and currently we're maxing the bad. Just because we do strive to get rid of some regulation doesn't mean that we're looking to get rid of ALL regulation, or that we are ignoring PROPER regulation.
    The LP has a party platform. That party platform calls for a great deal of deregulation.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  10. #120
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    Re: What does Libertarian Party need to happen for them to move forward...

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Lets say the government never assisted in the parts around it, cars(subsidies dating back to the Model T) never paved roads,never assisted in the creation of oil based products, and never assisted many of the large oil companies to get off the ground. What do you think would of happened? Most likely it would still occur that oil would be mined but the usefulness of it would of never gotten to the same output and the demand would of never taken hold at anywhere near the same level. I don't know if it would still be monopoly but I do know the pull on people would be far less important than it is.
    Very interesting, however poorly stated,IMO....
    The "conservatives" constantly harp on their idea that only business "creates" jobs, but here, its obvious that government does and that government really speeds things up..
    At least, this is my take on what Henrin has to say.....my rather convoluted attempt..
    Also, IMO, libertarianism works not....maybe it would work in a "perfect" world.

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