View Poll Results: Does Romney deserve credit for the auto-bailout?

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Thread: Conservative Poll: Does Romney deserve credit for the auto-bailout?

  1. #11
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    Re: Conservative Poll: Does Romney deserve credit for the auto-bailout?

    Quote Originally Posted by AreteCourage View Post
    Mitt Romney did absolutely nothing other then flip flop his opinions on this issue.
    The problem with that video is there is nothing incompatible with those two statements. Bankruptcy does not mean letting a company fail!

    I mean, there are thousands of companies that are currently in bankruptcy proceedings, but will come out alive. A short list of major, well known companies who went through bankruptcy and are still here:

    US Airways
    United Airlines
    Delta Airlines
    Northwest Airlines
    Frontier Airlines
    AOL
    Charter Communications
    CIT Group
    Kodak
    Harry & David
    Hostess Brands
    Kmart
    LA Dodgers
    Marvel Comics
    MGM Studios

    (and I could keep going)

  2. #12
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    Re: Conservative Poll: Does Romney deserve credit for the auto-bailout?

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    No and unlike Hussein Obama he would never try and take credit for it.
    Navy...did you bother to read the story or the OP? He DID try and take credit for it:

    "So I’ll take a lot of credit for the fact that this industry’s come back"

    No, Romney doesn't deserve credit for the Auto-Industry apparant resurgance. While yes, he could get credit for suggesting a course of action that was successful, he does't get credit for it actually happening since:

    1) There's no suggestion what so ever that the final decision regarding the auto-industry was done with his comments in mind or based on his suggestions
    2) Ultimately it wasn't Romney who was running those businesses at the top and farther dow or putting in the work to get them up and going again.

    Coming up with an idea and getting credit for coming up with an idea is one thing. But taking credit for "The industry's come back"? No....he doesn't deserve that credit.

  3. #13
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    Re: Conservative Poll: Does Romney deserve credit for the auto-bailout?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    In light of the new comments made by Romney, I thought it would be interesting to ask Conservatives if Romney deserves credit for the new revitalization seen in the Detroit auto industry.

    Mitt Romney Takes Credit For The Auto Bailout. Say, What? - Forbes



    It seems that the people who had a role in this were President Bush and later President Obama. So why is Romney giving himself credit for bringing the auto-industry back up after suggesting they should be allowed to fail?
    I am against bailouts. Romney at one time argued against the bailout, how in the hell is he going to take credit for it?
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  4. #14
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    Re: Conservative Poll: Does Romney deserve credit for the auto-bailout?

    If he believes in free market capitalism, he shouldn't even want "credit".
    Last edited by X Factor; 05-09-12 at 11:42 AM.

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    Re: Conservative Poll: Does Romney deserve credit for the auto-bailout?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick2253 View Post
    I'll do my best to summarize the differences here, but you really need to read up on what bankruptcy is if you don't see the distinction.
    What makes you think that GM and Chrysler wouldn't be liquidated by its majority shareholders and bondholders?

    Given the necessary levels of capital, the unfriendly union, stiff competition and ocean of red ink, what reasonable argument is there to give to suggest that GM and Chrysler could survive a chapter 11 bankruptcy?

    No one in their right mind in the private sector would pony up the kind of money to sustain the firms during a chapter 11. They certainly didn't have the money to do it themselves. I honestly see only one outcome without bailout money: chapter 7.
    Last edited by obvious Child; 05-10-12 at 04:53 AM.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Conservative Poll: Does Romney deserve credit for the auto-bailout?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    What makes you think that GM and Chrysler wouldn't be liquidated by its majority shareholders and bondholders?
    If GM and Chrysler could have found capital backers, then it really wouldn't have matter what the bondholders wanted. Once a company goes into a debtor in possession bankruptcy, they are basically freed of forced liquidation.

    I mean, ultimately, GM and Chryslers shareholders could, right now, decide to liquidate the companies, but they aren't doing that. Why? Because, like many companies whose debt got ahead of them, the big auto makers were not hugely unsuccessful. Their problem was that they had too aggressively grown debt during the boom times, and they were unable to generate enough revenue to pay that back during the bust times. GM was still doing quite well for itself considering the economic climate in 2008/2009. At least in the case of GM, I don't think the shareholders would have wanted the company liquidated. It was making money, just not enough relative to its debts.

    Edited to respond to added material above

    Given the necessary levels of capital, the unfriendly union, stiff competition and ocean of red ink, what reasonable argument is there to give to suggest that GM and Chrysler could survive a chapter 11 bankruptcy?
    Under bankruptcy, the union wouldn't have been a problem. Bankruptcy would have allowed Detroit to shed itself of a lot of its costs associated with the UAW.

    While GM and Chrysler especially suffered from a lot of competition, they weren't entirely overrun. GM still held favorable market positions internationally.

    The large amount of capital would really have been the one question mark. In the end, the government was essentially that provider.

    No one in their right mind in the private sector would pony up the kind of money to sustain the firms during a chapter 11. They certainly didn't have the money to do it themselves. I honestly see only one outcome without bailout money: chapter 7.
    I honestly think that GM would have survived a Chpt 11 bankruptcy, but Chrysler would have folded. Most of GM's refinancing and restructuring capital would probably have come from overseas. The other thing to remember is that GM wasn't on its last legs when the bailout happened. As such, people were hesitant to give money to GM, because they weren't sure where they were going. As d-day drew nearer, it would have allowed private firms to get larger portions of the company in exchange for the same restructuring capital. This is why you don't see many companies finalize deals on bankruptcy until they are almost out of operating capital.

  7. #17
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    Re: Conservative Poll: Does Romney deserve credit for the auto-bailout?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    What makes you think that GM and Chrysler wouldn't be liquidated by its majority shareholders and bondholders?

    Given the necessary levels of capital, the unfriendly union, stiff competition and ocean of red ink, what reasonable argument is there to give to suggest that GM and Chrysler could survive a chapter 11 bankruptcy?

    No one in their right mind in the private sector would pony up the kind of money to sustain the firms during a chapter 11. They certainly didn't have the money to do it themselves. I honestly see only one outcome without bailout money: chapter 7.

    The teaparty types wanted full bankruptcy for GM to enable the crushing of the union and making all of Gm and Chryslers CEO and management FAILURES be paid by their workers. GM workers didnt destroy GM and CHrysler...UPPER management did that all by themselves...and when you talk about Excess's they conveniently blame the workers and never the top that were flying around in personal jets as the companies sank and WERE BEGGING FOR TAXPAYER BAILOUT BILLIONS....
    The Stockholders in failed companies like GM and BIg banks should lose EVERY DIME of their money...and watch how fast the investors take control back over big corporations from the CEO bigs at the trough that name their own ticket.
    None of you teapartiers can ever convince me that this countries hole was dug by the middleclass and unions....the fault lies with the pigs at the trough...that now want their snouts in my pocket with another tax cut
    Last edited by lpast; 05-10-12 at 05:00 AM.

  8. #18
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    Re: Conservative Poll: Does Romney deserve credit for the auto-bailout?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick2253 View Post
    If GM and Chrysler could have found capital backers, then it really wouldn't have matter what the bondholders wanted. Once a company goes into a debtor in possession bankruptcy, they are basically freed of forced liquidation.
    That's a giant if. Especially in 2009~2010.

    I mean, ultimately, GM and Chryslers shareholders could, right now, decide to liquidate the companies, but they aren't doing that.
    Now is not then, when then was a time when banks would not even lend to each other for 8 hours. Personally, I think the notion that either Chrysler or GM could get financing in 2009~2010 is complete lunacy. No one had the money or was risk tolerant enough to lend that much to them for a restructuring. Institutions were pulling money out of equities and buying T bills because they were so afraid. The idea that VCs would commit that kind of capital to GM and Chrysler with their kind of problems in that bad of an economy is crazy talk.

    GM was still doing quite well for itself considering the economic climate in 2008/2009. At least in the case of GM, I don't think the shareholders would have wanted the company liquidated. It was making money, just not enough relative to its debts.
    Which makes it a bad investment. It doesn't matter if the shareholders (or at least some of them) don't want to liquidate. If you can't get financing to keep you out of bankruptcy, it doesn't matter what shareholders want.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Conservative Poll: Does Romney deserve credit for the auto-bailout?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    What is the difference between allowing a company to fail and allowing a company to go bankrupt? Im dying to hear this.
    The time it takes.

  10. #20
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    Re: Conservative Poll: Does Romney deserve credit for the auto-bailout?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    What makes you think that GM and Chrysler wouldn't be liquidated by its majority shareholders and bondholders?

    Given the necessary levels of capital, the unfriendly union, stiff competition and ocean of red ink, what reasonable argument is there to give to suggest that GM and Chrysler could survive a chapter 11 bankruptcy?

    No one in their right mind in the private sector would pony up the kind of money to sustain the firms during a chapter 11. They certainly didn't have the money to do it themselves. I honestly see only one outcome without bailout money: chapter 7.
    Let me add to your position here that the much longer time chapter 11 bankruptcy would have taken would have taken down Ford too.

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