View Poll Results: Choose three social programs(3 only)

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  • Universal Healthcare

    15 62.50%
  • Education/k-12 + 4 years higher ed

    16 66.67%
  • Emergency welfare/medical/unemployment benefits

    9 37.50%
  • Social Security/medical for elderly/retired

    12 50.00%
  • Disability/medical services and benefits

    9 37.50%
  • Veterans/medical services and benefits

    10 41.67%
  • Planned Parenthood services

    5 20.83%
  • Arts&Entertainment/PBS funding

    4 16.67%
  • Emergency corporate/economy bailout fund

    4 16.67%
  • Illegal Alien emergency assistance and services

    1 4.17%
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Thread: Is Limited Socialism Possible In A Capitalist Economy?

  1. #41
    Advisor Nick2253's Avatar
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    Re: Is Limited Socialism Possible In A Capitalist Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Actually, Im pretty sure the line of thought that brought us communism was actually related to means of production, ownership of capital and social anomie. Dont let your ignorance top you though.
    Providing all those services through a community government would exactly be common ownership of the means of production. Means of production is not just direct capital production, like mineral extraction or automobiles, but it is any service by which one individual stands to make money (aka produces capital). The argument for Communism is that, if capital is being produced and owned not according to need, but according to ability, then those who need such capital, but have no ability, are unfairly disenfranchised by society, because they subsequently lack access to services or products necessary for their own wellbeing. Read any of Lenin's writing on the subject.

    Do you deny people who think charity and empathy lead to holocaust exist? If you dont, then its not an insult.
    Don't be coy. No one believes charity and empathy lead to the holocaust. Your comment was clearly an argumentum ad Hitlerum intended to conflate small government and support for the Nazis.

  2. #42
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    Re: Is Limited Socialism Possible In A Capitalist Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick2253 View Post
    Don't be coy. No one believes charity and empathy lead to the holocaust. Your comment was clearly an argumentum ad Hitlerum intended to conflate small government and support for the Nazis.
    Glenn Beck - Wikiquote

    Finally well, he wasn't the president, he was the chancellor Hitler, decided that it was the only empathetic thing to do, is to put this child down and put him out of his suffering. It was the beginning of the T4, which led to genocide everywhere. It was the beginning of it. Empathy leads you to very bad decisions many times.
    Lol. Except for Glenn Beck.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Is Limited Socialism Possible In A Capitalist Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Glenn Beck - Wikiquote

    Lol. Except for Glenn Beck.
    Wow. I can't actually believe he said that. I'll take it back. Or reclassify "people" to not include Glenn Beck. I actually think the latter is more accurate.

    However, Beck's arguments are more about euthanasia, and not the Holocaust. Germans didn't kill Jews and Gypsies out of empathy, they killed them out of spite.

  4. #44
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    Re: Is Limited Socialism Possible In A Capitalist Economy?

    Fallacious thread is fallacious.
    So follow me into the desert
    As desperate as you are
    Where the moon is glued to a picture of heaven
    And all the little pigs have God

  5. #45
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    Re: Is Limited Socialism Possible In A Capitalist Economy?

    Providing all those services through a community government would exactly be common ownership of the means of production. Means of production is not just direct capital production, like mineral extraction or automobiles, but it is any service by which one individual stands to make money (aka produces capital). The argument for Communism is that, if capital is being produced and owned not according to need, but according to ability, then those who need such capital, but have no ability, are unfairly disenfranchised by society, because they subsequently lack access to services or products necessary for their own wellbeing. Read any of Lenin's writing on the subject.
    It has nothing to do with "ability". I have no idea what you're talking about. Maybe you should go back and reread your Lenin.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: Is Limited Socialism Possible In A Capitalist Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    It has nothing to do with "ability". I have no idea what you're talking about. Maybe you should go back and reread your Lenin.
    What do you mean it has nothing to do with ability? Communism necessarily demands that each individual contribute to society by providing service to society according to their ability. I'll say it again: the argument for Communism is that a capitalistic system (where you get what you put in) inherently disenfranchises those without the ability to contribute to society.

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    Re: Is Limited Socialism Possible In A Capitalist Economy?

    What do you mean it has nothing to do with ability? Communism necessarily demands that each individual contribute to society by providing service to society according to their ability. I'll say it again: the argument for Communism is that a capitalistic system (where you get what you put in) inherently disenfranchises those without the ability to contribute to society.
    No, it's not. I'll say it again: It has nothing to do with ability.

    The "argument against capitalism" is simply a cold hard fact of capitalism, i.e. that accumulation/distribution/redistribution of wealth are done on an anarchic (in the sense of anarchy, not anarchism) basis, regardless of ability.

    It has absolutely nothing to do with one's ability to provide a service, much less one's "ability to contribute to society," which is pretty much the most subjective and therefore worthless phrase you could use.
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 05-09-12 at 12:08 AM.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: Is Limited Socialism Possible In A Capitalist Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    My observations tell me that Socialism is never satisfied in a limited capacity and will forever be attempting to grow and spread.

    The Free Dictionary defines Socialism as;
    "Marxist theory- the first stage in the transition from capitalism to communism, marked by imperfect realizations of collectivist principles"

    For this reason, I have always been against all federally funded social programs because I fear what socialism invariably leads to.

    For the sake of argument, let's suppose that a compromise was reached that allowed for only three specific taxpayer funded social programs with the elimination of all others.

    Which 3 of the 10 programs defined in the poll would you choose???

    (1) Universal Healthcare
    (2) Education/K-12 + 4 years higher-ed
    (3) Emergency & unemployment benefits
    (4) Social Security retirement/senior citizens
    (5) Disability services/benefits
    (6) Veterans services/benefits
    (7) Planned Parenthood services
    (8) Arts&Entertainment/PBS
    (9) Emergency corporate/economy bailouts
    (10) Illegal Alien assistance programs
    (programs for american citizens only with the exception of #10)
    All nations implement more and more social programs and regulations and laws as populations grow and become more diverse, land shrinks, resources become scarcer and pollution creeps. It's not slowly emerging socialism as you so hyperbolicly put it-- it's the natural outcome of national growth. Some day, we'll be like the UK, with security cameras everywhere, insane laws regulating minuscule actions, high taxes and huge, slow government.

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    Re: Is Limited Socialism Possible In A Capitalist Economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    ...that accumulation/distribution/redistribution of wealth are done on an anarchic (in the sense of anarchy, not anarchism) basis.
    While market distribution is not perfect, the basic idea of efficient resource allocation in a supply/demand model is mathematically perfect, not technically anarchic.

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    Re: Is Limited Socialism Possible In A Capitalist Economy?

    First, Any model can be made mathematically perfect. That doesn't mean it reflects reality.

    Second, the supply and demand model isn't mathematically sound.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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