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constitutional amendment guaranteeing full auto assault weapon ownership

Support a constitutional amendment guaranteeing full auto assault weapon ownership?

  • Total voters
    35
LaMidRighter said:
Well, hold on Mo. Not to get off topic but the idiots of the old south, while they did create a problem, did so as a political reaction that dates back to abuses of the prior century. There were a lot of unresolved problems from reconstruction which unfortunately led to a race war, it doesn't excuse the unfair Jim Crowe and other race based statutes, but both north and south had blood on their hands on the race issue. I don't want to get off topic, just my 2 cents.
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I'm aware of where some of the problems arose but I was also making a general statement. The government doesn't typically step in unless there is a big problem. Regardless of popular belief, politicians are generally lazy, uncompromising bastards so if they agree on something enough to pass and enforce it there's usually a problem or pressure from the public to do so.
 
MoSurveyor said:
I am aware that many Libertarians think all laws are a form of punishment. I will not argue the obvious disadvantages of anarchy with you.
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I'm a minarchist Surveyor.
 
cpwill said:
this is sadly a misreading. Without incentive structures that reward government bureaucrats and congress critters for creating but not removing laws and regulations, there would be fewer laws and regulations.
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And what do you think those "incentive structures" are?
 
MoSurveyor said:
I'm aware of where some of the problems arose but I was also making a general statement. The government doesn't typically step in unless there is a big problem. Regardless of popular belief, politicians are generally lazy, uncompromising bastards so if they agree on something enough to pass and enforce it there's usually a problem or pressure from the public to do so.
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You cannot tell me that "big problems" exist so much that individuals cannot handle it better and more immediately than some elected representative from a state thousands of miles away. There is no way there are that many serious problems.
 
LaMidRighter said:
You cannot tell me that "big problems" exist so much that individuals cannot handle it better and more immediately than some elected representative from a state thousands of miles away. There is no way there are that many serious problems.
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Think about the government problems you have now then look up how those laws and agencies came about in the first place.
 
jamesrage said:
Somehow I doubt you would want Americans owning rockets, canons, Ballista, bombs, grenades,Mortar, Hwacha, Ribauldequin, fire arrows or any other types of arms used around or before the constitution was written.
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Good point.
 
UtahBill said:
Not sure what old ways mean, go back to crime?
I see lots of landscapers, bug and weed spray trucks, pool cleaners, carpet cleanrs, etc. out there.. Start a small business, lots of them require very little in the way of upfront expenses. Getting bonded might be an issue depending on the nature of the felony.
But looking for help from the society that doesn't trust the felon is a waste of time. Society isn't the problem near as much as the attitude of the person who has the felony record. I have a relative who went to prison twice, and is out now, hopefully for good. He stole money from people, long story short. Relatives have tried to help him get his head out of his arse, but he has been stubborn.
Even when society does try to help, eventually society gives up on certain people, those who gave up on themselves a long time ago....
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I had this whole post typed out talking about your points here and extrapolating on what I said. Then I realized that it was getting way too off topic. So I'm going to narrow it down.

Needless to say you are right that there are those that just keep repeating despite help. For those, yeah, give up on them...keep them in prison for the rest of their lives imo. But you don't throw the baby out with the bath water. IE don't give up on the rest because of one bad apple. There ARE people out there that do want to do the right thing. That do want to change.
 
Paschendale said:
Discourse has done more to create and protect our rights than weapons ever could. Words are often the tool to topple violent oppressors, who use their weapons to enslave others. If all the gun owners in this country fight the US army, it wouldn't end terribly well for the citizens of this land. It wasn't weapons that brought legal equality among races in this country, nor the rights of women. The people of India drove out the British, the mightiest empire in the world, without taking up arms. Violence doesn't change the world for the better. Even the revolution that forged this country would have been meaningless if not for the words that went along with it. American freedom and democracy weren't created with guns, but with a pen and parchment.
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Bold: Tell that to the people of Iran from the latest election.
 
Sarcogito said:
When I do a search I find no such consensus among DP members. But even if there were, and you remove the nukes, bunker busters, and AA, everything else I mention can be deployed by a soldier. And that is still a very scary scenario for most people.
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Since when are your feelings of being scared a reason to stop someone from exercising their full rights?
 
Luna Tick said:
Do you support a constitutional amendment that guarantees all citizens who are not convicted felons the right to own fully automatic assault weapons? It would be meant to amend or clarify the second amendment.
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Accidentally voted yes. No amendment is necessary, the Constitution grants everyone the right to bear arms. Due process is not a forever thing. Once the case is disposed by the presiding judge, all rights should automatically be restored, including the right to keep and bear arms.
 
Whenever I read through these threads...they all have the same tone. Of course we CANT allow anyone to own whatever firearm they want and everyone knows that. Cant have everyone owning every weapon designed to kill humans ever created. So theres only one question after that...
Where does the line get drawn...Does it get drawn at Rocket Launchers or Full Auto Assault Rifles.
If You allow full auto Assault Rifles...then police will need a bigger better one in every Patrol Car...and just think about lots of assualt rifle shootouts between police and Lunatics...enraged x husbands...nutjobs and Schizos....lotta lotta more mistakes lottalotta more dead innocents.
Theres no need in my mind for everyone to own military style weaponry on whims....99% wont know how to load them
 
earthworm said:
I do not think that a loss of gun ownership is any kind of "punishment" for the felon..
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Would the loss of freedom of assembly be a punishment? Would loss of freedom of speech be a punishment? Loss of the privacy?

The loss of the ability to exercise any right is a HUGE punishment.
 
Paschendale said:
I'm curious, why exactly is it that the second amendment is viewed as magically immune to any and all regulation, whereas no other amendment is treated the same way? The first amendment says "congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech", yet they do, and to suggest that every single rule that governs speech is wrong is absurd. The war on drugs is founded entirely on infringements of the fourth amendment. It is the right of the people to keep and bear arms that shall not be infringed, not the convenience to do so completely unregulated. Why is only the second amendment somehow immune to the same limitations as the rest of the bill of rights?
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mainly because the federal government didn't have the authority to regulate such things until there was a dishonest expansion of the commerce clause meaning its teh tenth amendment that is implicated as well as the second.
 
earthworm said:
You do know what the recidivism rate is, do you not ?
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I do!
What do you think it is?



earthworm said:
And punishment has been shown NOT to be effective..
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That isn't necessarily true.




earthworm said:
They. and all others, should only be allowed any gun ownership after they prove that their criminal past is indeed past, to my satsifaction..
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I have to disagree.
Once discharged, all rights should be returned.




earthworm said:
... and ***surprise of surprises*** the Koran....really off the wall, I'll admit.
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Yeah, far off the wall.
Why would you even say such a thing knowing that "there are very few verses of tolerance and peace to abrogate or even balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed"?





UtahBill said:
..., but there are non-violent felonies where I would support the perp owning a gun but only after petitioning the courts, and after "paying his debt to society". Bernie Madoff will never get a gun, based on his ability to repay his victims.....

People do not easily change,, not without significant emotional events in their lives. If the courts deem a former felon sane enough to own a gun, and he commits a crime with it, back into the slammer, forever....
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I disagree because I find your position to be unreasonable.




Kal'Stang said:
But I do know for a fact that if you have a felony charge it is 20 times harder to get a good, steady paying job, no matter your other qualifications.
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Just twenty?
Damn that's pretty good. lol




UtahBill said:
Society isn't the problem near as much as the attitude of the person who has the felony record.
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Society is one type of problem to the full reintegration into society of an ex-offender. A negative attitude would be another, and for some, generated by society preventing them from fully reintegrating.
 
TurtleDude-
still waiting to hear what kind of deer rifle you have seen shoot to 800 yards and score a first round hit.

Also think it is a fantasy scenario to think a man seizes power AND leaves so many 800 yard 30 ought owners free. The fight will be as the enforcer arm of the dictator moves through society collecting those 800 yard rifles. The odds of anyone getting a shot at the dictator is very low. But nice fantasy to run through your mind as you clean your pistol...

It is a hot mess when discussing how many times a felon repeats. One problem is a felon is labeled just that and the simplest backround check flags him. If two guys apply and one is a felon, guess who gets hired. I'd rather see a non violent felon get his record exsponged after serving his time.

If he is a repeater it will show soon enough and will be dealt with anyway. But a strong incentive to have fully restored rights will help with non violent first time offenders.

There are alot more felons out there than drug dealers and murderers.
 
notquiteright said:
TurtleDude-
still waiting to hear what kind of deer rifle you have seen shoot to 800 yards and score a first round hit.

Also think it is a fantasy scenario to think a man seizes power AND leaves so many 800 yard 30 ought owners free. The fight will be as the enforcer arm of the dictator moves through society collecting those 800 yard rifles. The odds of anyone getting a shot at the dictator is very low. But nice fantasy to run through your mind as you clean your pistol...

It is a hot mess when discussing how many times a felon repeats. One problem is a felon is labeled just that and the simplest backround check flags him. If two guys apply and one is a felon, guess who gets hired. I'd rather see a non violent felon get his record exsponged after serving his time.

If he is a repeater it will show soon enough and will be dealt with anyway. But a strong incentive to have fully restored rights will help with non violent first time offenders.

There are alot more felons out there than drug dealers and murderers.
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look I realize that statists like you want more and more government crackdowns on liberty.

Winchester Model 70, Leopold Scope. 30-06 caliber. same rifle and caliber used by one MSgt Carlos Hathcock (google him). better scope than the Unertl he used 45 years ago. Your rants about gun owners are pathetic. as to felons-I don't disagree with your claims.
 
Paschendale said:
Discourse has done more to create and protect our rights than weapons ever could. Words are often the tool to topple violent oppressors, who use their weapons to enslave others. If all the gun owners in this country fight the US army, it wouldn't end terribly well for the citizens of this land. It wasn't weapons that brought legal equality among races in this country, nor the rights of women. The people of India drove out the British, the mightiest empire in the world, without taking up arms. Violence doesn't change the world for the better. Even the revolution that forged this country would have been meaningless if not for the words that went along with it. American freedom and democracy weren't created with guns, but with a pen and parchment.
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I said "emergency" insurance policy. As for American freedom and democracy/ pen and parchment, you are technically correct, but without the fight, none of it would have mattered.
 
TurtleDude said:
Is there anyone who actually believes that the commerce clause is a proper delegation of power to the federal government to regulate small arms in violation of the 2nd and Tenth Amendments? because if you believe the federal government should so regulate you will have to make that argument
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I would think the 9th amendment would mean that the government has no business trying to use the commerce clause to **** on the 2nd amendment.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
 
Oh I know the Gunny Sir,

Now lets be clear, the model 70 used was NOT a deer rifle (they have varmint barrels, MUCH heavier) nor did The Gunny score a first round hit at 800 yards. It is bull bunk to claim there are many Gunny's out there. He was literally one in a million, all claims to how many scoped 30 oughts there are out there.

Fact is YOU have NO, I say again ZERO idea on how anyone hits a man over 800 yards away with the first round, you would know a modern deer rifle wont do it and there is sooooo much more to it than the gear.

Clueless drivel.

The Marine you should have used was Steve Suttles, he was my Instructor and will quickly tell you he did his shot after much practice when the target wasn't around.

So all the overblown rhetoric about a nation of riflemen, perhaps that is so, but riflemen are not snipers. Hell former military officers opine in gun rags that you need a magnum caliber to hunt game at 200 yards! (My best was 486yards, 308, NOT a deer rifle, buck through his heart, next a coyote at 340 yards but doped the wind wrong and she needed a second round) But I won't claim I can hit a man at 800 yards first round unless conditions are VERY good, and I am no Fudd!

I am first and foremost a realist. YOU may have some Fred Appleseed fantasy about fighting back against a dictator, YOU may think the 'dictators' out there worry about Fudds with 'guns', but that aint happening. The number of men who have a shot, so's to speak, at that 800 yard shot are easy enough to roundup, their names are posted everywhere there is a LR/Bench/F-class/Hipower match.

And if you think a dictator WON'T send his minions to roundup those with the skills and bring the fight TO the People you are crazy. The fight will be against professional soldiers with a lot more firepower than a bolt gun, not snapping off a shot at the dictator all hollywood like.

But makes good ranting for an NRA meeting.... :roll:
 
MoSurveyor said:
And what do you think those "incentive structures" are?
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Promotion Pay Recognition Reelection and Fame.


We reward our bureaucrats for putting new regulatory burdens into place, not for lifting old ones. Politicians get to put their names on new laws, not on the repeal of outdated or unneeded ones. The result is a federal registrar and tax code beyond anyones comprehension and a regulatory climate where every single small business owner is a criminal of one kind or another.
 
False argument-
A small business doesn't need to know the ENTIRE Register or tax code. Just the parts that apply to that particular business.

I don't need to know the regulations on fuel distribution, or cough syrup manufacturer, don't need to know the rules for taxis or buses.

I don't need to understand tax regulations for hedge funds, for lobster fishing, nor forestry, or what taxes a medical service has to pay.

The Register and tax code is a false flag waved by AM Talk Radio.
 
notquiteright said:
Oh I know the Gunny Sir,

Now lets be clear, the model 70 used was NOT a deer rifle (they have varmint barrels, MUCH heavier) nor did The Gunny score a first round hit at 800 yards. It is bull bunk to claim there are many Gunny's out there. He was literally one in a million, all claims to how many scoped 30 oughts there are out there.

Fact is YOU have NO, I say again ZERO idea on how anyone hits a man over 800 yards away with the first round, you would know a modern deer rifle wont do it and there is sooooo much more to it than the gear.

Clueless drivel.

The Marine you should have used was Steve Suttles, he was my Instructor and will quickly tell you he did his shot after much practice when the target wasn't around.

So all the overblown rhetoric about a nation of riflemen, perhaps that is so, but riflemen are not snipers. Hell former military officers opine in gun rags that you need a magnum caliber to hunt game at 200 yards! (My best was 486yards, 308, NOT a deer rifle, buck through his heart, next a coyote at 340 yards but doped the wind wrong and she needed a second round) But I won't claim I can hit a man at 800 yards first round unless conditions are VERY good, and I am no Fudd!

I am first and foremost a realist. YOU may have some Fred Appleseed fantasy about fighting back against a dictator, YOU may think the 'dictators' out there worry about Fudds with 'guns', but that aint happening. The number of men who have a shot, so's to speak, at that 800 yard shot are easy enough to roundup, their names are posted everywhere there is a LR/Bench/F-class/Hipower match.

And if you think a dictator WON'T send his minions to roundup those with the skills and bring the fight TO the People you are crazy. The fight will be against professional soldiers with a lot more firepower than a bolt gun, not snapping off a shot at the dictator all hollywood like.

But makes good ranting for an NRA meeting.... :roll:
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welll let me educate you on a few things

the 30-06 is the "king of big game" calibers in the USA. Lanny and Larry Benoit-the most famous deer hunters in the USA in the 70s swore by that cartridge. Its the most popular deer cartridge in the USA over the last 70 years with the 30-30 and 308 probably right behind it. Me. I shot a Grant's Gazelle in Kenya at 650M with a Browning Belgium Made copy of the 70 in 30-06. Redfield scope, 3-12 power, Winchester 180 Grain bullet. 1976. I was 17. My brother, then 16 took an Impala at 450M with the same rifle. Of course when I was still a teenager I shot the military rifle course with a M1 Garand and qualified "Expert". At the USOTC where I was there for a summer as a shotgun athlete, I played around with 300M free rifles. Ray Carter was the current world champion and a coach. Did Ok with those too and made NRA D.E. in air rifle. I don't think you'd be much competition for me in a rifle shoot.

You think most soldiers would support such a dicatator? apparently those who are of your political bent might. My nephew-Currently a captain in the US SF stationed in Fort Lewis-no chance.
 
MoSurveyor said:
Think about the government problems you have now then look up how those laws and agencies came about in the first place.
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I know about your regulatory argument, most of the initial problems were caused by some idiot in government in the first place, that or a niche group. Their regs made it worse, let's get back on topic now.
 
notquiteright said:
Oh I know the Gunny Sir,

Now lets be clear, the model 70 used was NOT a deer rifle (they have varmint barrels, MUCH heavier) nor did The Gunny score a first round hit at 800 yards. It is bull bunk to claim there are many Gunny's out there. He was literally one in a million, all claims to how many scoped 30 oughts there are out there.

Fact is YOU have NO, I say again ZERO idea on how anyone hits a man over 800 yards away with the first round, you would know a modern deer rifle wont do it and there is sooooo much more to it than the gear.
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I think you might be exaggerating a good bit here. I've been through the Army Sniper School at Benning, and did a deployment in afghanistan with the 173rd. I was certainly not the best shot in our group, but even I could pretty consistently hit a nonmoving target with a first round from 600-800 meters about 70+% of the time. (95% for second round with a correction.) My furthest shot was 1000 meters. This was all with the Remington M24 7.62mm. One of my teammates hit a guy at 2.2 km with a Barrett 50 cal, which I told him was luck, he however swore was mad skills.

The point I'm trying to make is, although it's difficult to hit a target 800 meters and further with a first shot, it is not as irregular as you suggest. My comrades and I were not extraordinary snipers, and we didn't have much of a problem with it.
 
TurtleDude said:
look I realize that statists like you want more and more government crackdowns on liberty.

Winchester Model 70, Leopold Scope. 30-06 caliber. same rifle and caliber used by one MSgt Carlos Hathcock (google him). better scope than the Unertl he used 45 years ago. Your rants about gun owners are pathetic. as to felons-I don't disagree with your claims.
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That man is one of my biggest heroes. I read his book marine sniper and am still to this day baffled at how such a myth of a man could've existed.
 
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