View Poll Results: Do you believe in God?

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Thread: Do you believe in God?[W:359]

  1. #211
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    Re: Do you believe in God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I don't have to, any more than I have to prove there are no unicorns. You're the one making the claim, it rests entirely on your shoulders to prove your claim is true.

    Until you can do that, there's no obligation to take your claim seriously.
    What claim? That post was my first in this thread. I've made no claims here.
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  2. #212
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    Re: Do you believe in God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    you ask me?
    Sure. No just kidding it was for the Op.

  3. #213
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    Re: Do you believe in God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Are priests really more likely to be child sexual abusers? Intuitively, it would seem so, from the reports and the fact that they take a vow of celibacy. Who, after all, would want to give up having sex unless they had some hangups of their own? It doesn't seem to be so, however:
    Actually, if we really study the Catholic abuse cases, we do find some nasty data. In her foreword, the lawyer, Sylvia Demerest cites a 1995 survey of 19,000 treating professionals, funded by the National Centre on Child Abuse and Neglect. The study found that in the US, 94% of abuses by religious authorities were sexual in nature. Over half of these cases (54%) involved perpetrators and victims who were Catholic, even though Roman Catholics comprise only 25% of the United States population.

    "The problem is not just with the fraction of priests who molests youngsters, but in an ecclesiastical power structure which harbours pedophiles, conceals other sexual behaviour patterns among its clerics and uses the strategies of duplicity and counterattack against the victims."
    Joughin, M. 'Church response to the sex abuse priest', In Fidelity, No.8. September 1995, p. 1.

    The problem is, the 2% figure is just a guess, nobody really knows how many priests molest and most of the data comes straight from the RCC, which has every reason to lie about it. The fact is, it's been official church doctrine to hide pedophile priests and deflect police investigations. It's only been in the last couple of years that they've been forced to change, due to legal and public pressure, and start cooperating with the police. They've lost millions upon millions of dollars and I don't remotely think they're through hemorrhaging cash yet. They've had diocese go bankrupt with all the money paid out on these sex abuse cases. It depends on who you ask as to how many abuse:

    Philip Jenkins, is a professor of history and religious studies at Penn State University, and has written a book on the topic. He estimates that 2% of priests sexually abuse youths and children.

    Richard Sipe is a psychotherapist and former priest, who has studied celibacy and sexuality in the priesthood for four decades. He has authored three books on the topic. By extrapolating from his 25 years of interviews of 1,500 priests and others, he estimates that 6% of priests abuse. 4% of priests abuse teens, aged 13 to 17; 2% abuse pre-pubescent children.

    A survey of child and youth sexual abuse within the church issued in 2004-FEB estimates that 4% of the 110,000 priests who served between 1950 and 2002 were abusive.

    We'll likely never know how many pedophile priests there are and we do know that this problem is not limited to the Catholic religion, members of all ministries have just as many problems keeping their hands out of the cookie jar. The problem is, these people are authority figures, routinely given unsupervised access to children and their parents are taught that they are direct conduits and authorities on God and his desires. That makes them all the more dangerous when they do go bad, especially given the unnatural restrictions on sexual activities that they're supposed to sign on to.

    Follow different rules? I think most people expect more of a religious leader than other people. Those expectations aren't always met, of course, but I really don't believe we tend to forgive religious leaders of actions we'd condemn on others.
    Yet we don't see that. In case after case of Catholic sex abuse, we see parishioners coming to the defense of the priest. It very well may be that they are defending their church and religion because they do not want to be tainted by the social stigma and therefore they refuse to believe that the person they've trusted could possibly have done anything wrong. That's very, very common across the board in abuse cases. Look at spousal abuse, where the abused woman is convinced that she deserves what happens and her husband cannot possibly do any wrong. It's dangerous thinking.

    It can be, no doubt. Whether it is as likely to be done secularly as in a religious setting is highly debatable.
    Why couldn't it be? There are examples all over the place of just that happening. The problem is, far too many people treat weakness as an excuse. These poor people, they're too weak to stand on their own feet and be responsible for themselves! They need a crutch! No, they don't need one, they want one. They're being given carte blanche permission by society to be weak, ignorant and helpless. They can get up and do it themselves, they can accept reality as it actually is, it's just too emotionally difficult so they don't bother trying. When you lower the standards, you harm everyone.

    But are the Muslim extremists really the rule, or are they the exception?
    It's the government of Egypt. These are the same kinds of rules that exist in many Muslim countries. Do you want to think all of these governments are extremist, or are they representative of Sharia law?

    But people who are taught service to fellow man and devotion to family are more likely to live those principles than those who are not. Sure, non religious people can do the same thing, but it seems to me that hearing people you respect espousing and living those principles is a positive influence on most of us.
    Just as many religious people are taught that God will take care of things, so don't bother trying. Some of the most damaging advice in the New Testament comes in the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus supposedly said not to worry about tomorrow, God will provide. Most of the lessons that people get taught aren't religious, they're social. There's no reason to think that two people taught the same lesson, one from a secular standpoint and one from a religious standpoint, won't turn out exactly the same way. In fact, I'd argue that the secular standpoint is much stronger because it doesn't teach reliance on fantasy. It's not based on fear and punishment. If you're only being a decent person because you're afraid you're going to roast in a lake of fire after you die, you're not really a decent person, are you?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  4. #214
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    Re: Do you believe in God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Actually, if we really study the Catholic abuse cases, we do find some nasty data. In her foreword, the lawyer, Sylvia Demerest cites a 1995 survey of 19,000 treating professionals, funded by the National Centre on Child Abuse and Neglect. The study found that in the US, 94% of abuses by religious authorities were sexual in nature. Over half of these cases (54%) involved perpetrators and victims who were Catholic, even though Roman Catholics comprise only 25% of the United States population.

    "The problem is not just with the fraction of priests who molests youngsters, but in an ecclesiastical power structure which harbours pedophiles, conceals other sexual behaviour patterns among its clerics and uses the strategies of duplicity and counterattack against the victims."
    Joughin, M. 'Church response to the sex abuse priest', In Fidelity, No.8. September 1995, p. 1.

    The problem is, the 2% figure is just a guess, nobody really knows how many priests molest and most of the data comes straight from the RCC, which has every reason to lie about it. The fact is, it's been official church doctrine to hide pedophile priests and deflect police investigations. It's only been in the last couple of years that they've been forced to change, due to legal and public pressure, and start cooperating with the police. They've lost millions upon millions of dollars and I don't remotely think they're through hemorrhaging cash yet. They've had diocese go bankrupt with all the money paid out on these sex abuse cases. It depends on who you ask as to how many abuse:

    Philip Jenkins, is a professor of history and religious studies at Penn State University, and has written a book on the topic. He estimates that 2% of priests sexually abuse youths and children.

    Richard Sipe is a psychotherapist and former priest, who has studied celibacy and sexuality in the priesthood for four decades. He has authored three books on the topic. By extrapolating from his 25 years of interviews of 1,500 priests and others, he estimates that 6% of priests abuse. 4% of priests abuse teens, aged 13 to 17; 2% abuse pre-pubescent children.

    A survey of child and youth sexual abuse within the church issued in 2004-FEB estimates that 4% of the 110,000 priests who served between 1950 and 2002 were abusive.

    We'll likely never know how many pedophile priests there are and we do know that this problem is not limited to the Catholic religion, members of all ministries have just as many problems keeping their hands out of the cookie jar. The problem is, these people are authority figures, routinely given unsupervised access to children and their parents are taught that they are direct conduits and authorities on God and his desires. That makes them all the more dangerous when they do go bad, especially given the unnatural restrictions on sexual activities that they're supposed to sign on to.
    The church does have a disturbing history of covering up priestly pedophilia, no doubt about it. I still have a problem with the idea that pedophilia is what defines the Catholic church, however. There is also such a thing as Catholic charity. There are the teachings of how we should live our lives and how we should treat our fellow men. If everyone were to treat others as they want to be treated, the world would be a vastly different place than it is now.

    The early Christian church also had a bad habit of persecuting Jews. Does that define the modern church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Yet we don't see that. In case after case of Catholic sex abuse, we see parishioners coming to the defense of the priest. It very well may be that they are defending their church and religion because they do not want to be tainted by the social stigma and therefore they refuse to believe that the person they've trusted could possibly have done anything wrong. That's very, very common across the board in abuse cases. Look at spousal abuse, where the abused woman is convinced that she deserves what happens and her husband cannot possibly do any wrong. It's dangerous thinking.
    Of course they're coming to the defense of their religion. It must be difficult to accept that someone in whom you have trust has violated that trust, but it does happen.

    I'm not sure just what abusive spouses have to do with any of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Why couldn't it be? There are examples all over the place of just that happening. The problem is, far too many people treat weakness as an excuse. These poor people, they're too weak to stand on their own feet and be responsible for themselves! They need a crutch! No, they don't need one, they want one. They're being given carte blanche permission by society to be weak, ignorant and helpless. They can get up and do it themselves, they can accept reality as it actually is, it's just too emotionally difficult so they don't bother trying. When you lower the standards, you harm everyone.
    Most of us do need a crutch from time to time. How easy is it to deal with the death of a loved one if you don't have someone to reassure you that there is something beyond this life? How easy is it to change your own life if you truly believe that there is no purpose beyond it? How easy is it to accept that you have some worth as a human being if you're simply a cosmic accident and your life has no purpose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    It's the government of Egypt. These are the same kinds of rules that exist in many Muslim countries. Do you want to think all of these governments are extremist, or are they representative of Sharia law?
    People in the Middle East in general do need to separate church and state if they're ever to be free. I'd hesitate to say that the Islamic extremists are in power in the entire area, however. The Taliban are just a small group, not representative of Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Just as many religious people are taught that God will take care of things, so don't bother trying.


    Some of the most damaging advice in the New Testament comes in the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus supposedly said not to worry about tomorrow, God will provide. Most of the lessons that people get taught aren't religious, they're social. There's no reason to think that two people taught the same lesson, one from a secular standpoint and one from a religious standpoint, won't turn out exactly the same way. In fact, I'd argue that the secular standpoint is much stronger because it doesn't teach reliance on fantasy. It's not based on fear and punishment. If you're only being a decent person because you're afraid you're going to roast in a lake of fire after you die, you're not really a decent person, are you?

    God helps those who help themselves is a major tenant of Christian religions.

    So, what is the secular argument for living an upright and moral life?
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

  5. #215
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    Re: Do you believe in God?

    Interesting: a simple black and white question - goes astray.
    “The people do no want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

  6. #216
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    Re: Do you believe in God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    Exactly I truly believe only people who are members of DP should be allowed to vote in polls.....You might see a whole different total.

    By the way welcome to DP we always can use another Conservative to fight the evils of Liberalism.
    I believe you should be able to answer the question I posed several pages back: Homosexuality isn't in the 10 C. Does that mean God gave gays a pass? It obviously isn't a big Biblical sin compared to the 10 C.










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    When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that person is crazy. ~Dave Barry



  7. #217
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    Re: Do you believe in God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Actually, if we really study the Catholic abuse cases, we do find some nasty data. In her foreword, the lawyer, Sylvia Demerest cites a 1995 survey of 19,000 treating professionals, funded by the National Centre on Child Abuse and Neglect. The study found that in the US, 94% of abuses by religious authorities were sexual in nature. Over half of these cases (54%) involved perpetrators and victims who were Catholic, even though Roman Catholics comprise only 25% of the United States population.

    "The problem is not just with the fraction of priests who molests youngsters, but in an ecclesiastical power structure which harbours pedophiles, conceals other sexual behaviour patterns among its clerics and uses the strategies of duplicity and counterattack against the victims."
    Joughin, M. 'Church response to the sex abuse priest', In Fidelity, No.8. September 1995, p. 1.

    The problem is, the 2% figure is just a guess, nobody really knows how many priests molest and most of the data comes straight from the RCC, which has every reason to lie about it. The fact is, it's been official church doctrine to hide pedophile priests and deflect police investigations. It's only been in the last couple of years that they've been forced to change, due to legal and public pressure, and start cooperating with the police. They've lost millions upon millions of dollars and I don't remotely think they're through hemorrhaging cash yet. They've had diocese go bankrupt with all the money paid out on these sex abuse cases. It depends on who you ask as to how many abuse:

    Philip Jenkins, is a professor of history and religious studies at Penn State University, and has written a book on the topic. He estimates that 2% of priests sexually abuse youths and children.

    Richard Sipe is a psychotherapist and former priest, who has studied celibacy and sexuality in the priesthood for four decades. He has authored three books on the topic. By extrapolating from his 25 years of interviews of 1,500 priests and others, he estimates that 6% of priests abuse. 4% of priests abuse teens, aged 13 to 17; 2% abuse pre-pubescent children.

    A survey of child and youth sexual abuse within the church issued in 2004-FEB estimates that 4% of the 110,000 priests who served between 1950 and 2002 were abusive.

    We'll likely never know how many pedophile priests there are and we do know that this problem is not limited to the Catholic religion, members of all ministries have just as many problems keeping their hands out of the cookie jar. The problem is, these people are authority figures, routinely given unsupervised access to children and their parents are taught that they are direct conduits and authorities on God and his desires. That makes them all the more dangerous when they do go bad, especially given the unnatural restrictions on sexual activities that they're supposed to sign on to.



    Yet we don't see that. In case after case of Catholic sex abuse, we see parishioners coming to the defense of the priest. It very well may be that they are defending their church and religion because they do not want to be tainted by the social stigma and therefore they refuse to believe that the person they've trusted could possibly have done anything wrong. That's very, very common across the board in abuse cases. Look at spousal abuse, where the abused woman is convinced that she deserves what happens and her husband cannot possibly do any wrong. It's dangerous thinking.



    Why couldn't it be? There are examples all over the place of just that happening. The problem is, far too many people treat weakness as an excuse. These poor people, they're too weak to stand on their own feet and be responsible for themselves! They need a crutch! No, they don't need one, they want one. They're being given carte blanche permission by society to be weak, ignorant and helpless. They can get up and do it themselves, they can accept reality as it actually is, it's just too emotionally difficult so they don't bother trying. When you lower the standards, you harm everyone.



    It's the government of Egypt. These are the same kinds of rules that exist in many Muslim countries. Do you want to think all of these governments are extremist, or are they representative of Sharia law?



    Just as many religious people are taught that God will take care of things, so don't bother trying. Some of the most damaging advice in the New Testament comes in the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus supposedly said not to worry about tomorrow, God will provide. Most of the lessons that people get taught aren't religious, they're social. There's no reason to think that two people taught the same lesson, one from a secular standpoint and one from a religious standpoint, won't turn out exactly the same way. In fact, I'd argue that the secular standpoint is much stronger because it doesn't teach reliance on fantasy. It's not based on fear and punishment. If you're only being a decent person because you're afraid you're going to roast in a lake of fire after you die, you're not really a decent person, are you?
    You make a compelling argument for women priests. Don't hold your breath, however.

    I don't disagree with the research you've posted, but I would say that it incorrect to compare pedophile data between the Roman Catholic Church and most or perhaps any Protestant denomination. The RC Church has a hierarchy that is quiet different from Southern Baptists, for example. By comparison the Southern Baptist clergy don't have much of an institutional hierarchy. As such there is no comparative reporting structure. A Youth Minister at the 1st Baptist Church in Dirt Squat, Kansas who is discovered to have sexually assaulted young boys will be dealt with locally. There is no institutional reporting structure compared to the Roman Catholic Church in Dirt Squat, Kansas.

    It is not my purpose to compare faiths. Both structures have their advantages and disadvantages. I would not argue in the least that the reporting structure in the Catholic Church obviously failed all the way back to Rome. Compared to what? We can't know. There aren't comparative hierarchies and inherent expectations of reporting in Protestant denominations. I would submit - without proof - that instances of sexual abuse within the Protestant denominations are actually higher than the data suggests. At the same time, I would suggest that even though clerical pedophilia is higher than reported among Protestant denominations, the comparative data, if true data could be collected, would continue to show a greater preponderance of pedophilia in the Roman Catholic Church.










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    When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that person is crazy. ~Dave Barry



  8. #218
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    Re: Do you believe in God?

    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

  9. #219
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    Re: Do you believe in God?

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    Ramen, sister of the one true faith!
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  10. #220
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    Re: Do you believe in God?

    Quote Originally Posted by jet57 View Post
    Interesting: a simple black and white question - goes astray.
    That's how it always goes lol.
    “Mr. Speaker, I once again find myself compelled to vote against the annual budget resolution for a very simple reason: it makes government bigger.” ― Ron Paul
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