View Poll Results: Do you believe in God?

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  • Yes

    64 53.33%
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Thread: Do you believe in God?[W:359]

  1. #201
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    Re: Do you believe in God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Except lots of people are able to be just as happy or happier, do all the same things and not have to rely on social delusion to do it. Christian divorce rates exceed atheist divorce rates, you know. Belief in an imaginary friend doesn't stop Christians from doing anything.



    Only if you define "harm" very narrowly. I think it's harmful to believe anything that is not factually true. There are tons of examples of theists of all stripes who do bad things, or allow bad things to be done, because of their beliefs. It's not just killing others.
    True enough, but modern churches do generally advocate living a good, upstanding life, doing right by fellow man, being honest, forgiving others, getting and staying married. A belief doesn't have to be true to influence people to do good things.

    There are some examples of harm done by organized religion, of course, like the guy who demonstrates at soldier's funerals.. can't think of his name just now, or the radical Islamists who want to go out and slay infidels for Allah, or the fundamentalists who make young girls marry a polygamist against their will.

    But, the balance seems to me to be in favor of churches in general.
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  2. #202
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    Re: Do you believe in God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    True enough, but modern churches do generally advocate living a good, upstanding life, doing right by fellow man, being honest, forgiving others, getting and staying married. A belief doesn't have to be true to influence people to do good things.
    But that still doesn't make it a good or worthwhile belief, especially when one can be influenced just as easily to do the same good things, without the false belief.

    There are some examples of harm done by organized religion, of course, like the guy who demonstrates at soldier's funerals.. can't think of his name just now, or the radical Islamists who want to go out and slay infidels for Allah, or the fundamentalists who make young girls marry a polygamist against their will.
    Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church. Yes, he is a douchebag. However, there are tons of Christians who silently give assent to his message, if not to his means, because they think the Bible teaches that God hates fags. They have been deluded by their beliefs into voting against equal rights for all Americans. They give money to causes which seek to undermine equal rights. These are the same people who, a generation or two ago, did the same thing with regard to interracial marriage. Or a generation or two before that against civil rights. These attitudes are pervasive in the more fundamentalist sects of Christianity. The same is true of fundamentalist sects of Islam, as you noted, but even when it's not preaching violence, you have people like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt trying to pass legislation that says it's okay for husbands to desecrate their dead wives bodies by having sex with them up to 6 hours after death. This is based entirely on religion. It cannot be justified any other way.

    But, the balance seems to me to be in favor of churches in general.
    No, the balance seems to be in favor of humans. Humans are, in general terms, decent enough. Most won't stab you in the back for your shoes because they recognize the social contract. They just try to justify the social contract with religion. Throw religion entirely out the window and these people are still going to act the same because they are decent people. That's why Steven Weinberg said, "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  3. #203
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    Re: Do you believe in God?

    Yes, but I am not a great Catholic, and I am not a protestant.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  4. #204
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    Re: Do you believe in God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    But that still doesn't make it a good or worthwhile belief, especially when one can be influenced just as easily to do the same good things, without the false belief.

    Can they now? That is the real crux of the matter. If it weren't for the churches giving morality the hard sell, would people still act in the same way? If that's true, then organized religion really doesn't do much good at all.

    No, actually, I think people tend to listen to preachers that they trust and look up to. Some of them are probably afraid of being judged in the afterlife. Others just see the wisdom in living life unselfishly, doing good to others, forgiving enemies, and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church. Yes, he is a douchebag. However, there are tons of Christians who silently give assent to his message, if not to his means, because they think the Bible teaches that God hates fags. They have been deluded by their beliefs into voting against equal rights for all Americans. They give money to causes which seek to undermine equal rights. These are the same people who, a generation or two ago, did the same thing with regard to interracial marriage. Or a generation or two before that against civil rights. These attitudes are pervasive in the more fundamentalist sects of Christianity. The same is true of fundamentalist sects of Islam, as you noted, but even when it's not preaching violence, you have people like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt trying to pass legislation that says it's okay for husbands to desecrate their dead wives bodies by having sex with them up to 6 hours after death. This is based entirely on religion. It cannot be justified any other way.
    Phelps, yes, that's the douchbag. So how many religious leaders are like Phelps? How may say it's OK to have sex with your dead wife? That's a new one on me.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    No, the balance seems to be in favor of humans. Humans are, in general terms, decent enough. Most won't stab you in the back for your shoes because they recognize the social contract. They just try to justify the social contract with religion. Throw religion entirely out the window and these people are still going to act the same because they are decent people. That's why Steven Weinberg said, "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
    I'm not so sure. Throw religion out the window, and people would still act the same? Some would, some wouldn't There are a lot of examples of people who turned their lives around because of accepting a belief in god/religion. I know several, don't you?
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  5. #205
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    Re: Do you believe in God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Can they now? That is the real crux of the matter. If it weren't for the churches giving morality the hard sell, would people still act in the same way? If that's true, then organized religion really doesn't do much good at all.
    But people who have never been religious are just as moral as people who have been religious all their lives. Religion doesn't really do anything for morality, except maybe screw people up and make them afraid of their bodies. The non-religious don't go around raping people as a general rule. They don't turn into child molesters. Those are Catholic priests and their molestation is *ENTIRELY* caused by their religious beliefs. If they could just get married and have sex like normal human beings, there would be no need to take their sexual frustration out on the only targets they have available to them: innocent children.

    No, actually, I think people tend to listen to preachers that they trust and look up to. Some of them are probably afraid of being judged in the afterlife. Others just see the wisdom in living life unselfishly, doing good to others, forgiving enemies, and so on.
    It's funny that when a preacher gets caught with their hand in the cookie jar, it's usually the congregation that steps up to defend them, not because they agree with what they did, but because they've been trained since early childhood that priests and ministers get to follow different rules because they're "closer to God". We can look at case after case after case where Catholic priests get caught molesting altar boys and they have their congregations standing right behind them to support them.

    Yes, there probably is wisdom in some of the things you mentioned, but you don't need religion to do any of that. It can be done entirely secularly.

    Phelps, yes, that's the douchbag. So how many religious leaders are like Phelps? How may say it's OK to have sex with your dead wife? That's a new one on me.
    It's new. The same law also lowers the legal age for women to get married to 14 and makes it illegal for women to get an education and a job. Really progressive thinkers, those Muslims.

    I'm not so sure. Throw religion out the window, and people would still act the same? Some would, some wouldn't There are a lot of examples of people who turned their lives around because of accepting a belief in god/religion. I know several, don't you?
    I think pretty much everyone would. Honestly, anyone who is only acting good because they're afraid of some imaginary father figure in the sky punishing them after they die is pretty unstable to begin with. Those people, we need to find and get out of the gene pool as fast as we can.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  6. #206
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    Re: Do you believe in God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    But people who have never been religious are just as moral as people who have been religious all their lives. Religion doesn't really do anything for morality, except maybe screw people up and make them afraid of their bodies. The non-religious don't go around raping people as a general rule. They don't turn into child molesters. Those are Catholic priests and their molestation is *ENTIRELY* caused by their religious beliefs. If they could just get married and have sex like normal human beings, there would be no need to take their sexual frustration out on the only targets they have available to them: innocent children.



    It's funny that when a preacher gets caught with their hand in the cookie jar, it's usually the congregation that steps up to defend them, not because they agree with what they did, but because they've been trained since early childhood that priests and ministers get to follow different rules because they're "closer to God". We can look at case after case after case where Catholic priests get caught molesting altar boys and they have their congregations standing right behind them to support them.

    Yes, there probably is wisdom in some of the things you mentioned, but you don't need religion to do any of that. It can be done entirely secularly.



    It's new. The same law also lowers the legal age for women to get married to 14 and makes it illegal for women to get an education and a job. Really progressive thinkers, those Muslims.



    I think pretty much everyone would. Honestly, anyone who is only acting good because they're afraid of some imaginary father figure in the sky punishing them after they die is pretty unstable to begin with. Those people, we need to find and get out of the gene pool as fast as we can.
    even if god didnt promise us heaven ,i would still believe in him..
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  7. #207
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    Re: Do you believe in God?

    What the hell for?

  8. #208
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    Re: Do you believe in God?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    What the hell for?
    you ask me?
    "Sovereignty is not given, it is taken." ATATÜRK

  9. #209
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    Re: Do you believe in God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    even if god didnt promise us heaven ,i would still believe in him..
    We already know you don't give a damn if what you believe is right or wrong, so why should we care?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  10. #210
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    Re: Do you believe in God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    But people who have never been religious are just as moral as people who have been religious all their lives. Religion doesn't really do anything for morality, except maybe screw people up and make them afraid of their bodies. The non-religious don't go around raping people as a general rule. They don't turn into child molesters. Those are Catholic priests and their molestation is *ENTIRELY* caused by their religious beliefs. If they could just get married and have sex like normal human beings, there would be no need to take their sexual frustration out on the only targets they have available to them: innocent children.
    Are priests really more likely to be child sexual abusers? Intuitively, it would seem so, from the reports and the fact that they take a vow of celibacy. Who, after all, would want to give up having sex unless they had some hangups of their own? It doesn't seem to be so, however:

    In a statement read out by Archbishop Silvano Maria Tomasi in September 2009, the Holy See stated "We know now that in the last 50 years somewhere between 1.5% and 5% of the Catholic clergy has been involved in sexual abuse cases", adding that this figure was comparable with that of other groups and denominations.[6] A Perspective on Clergy Sexual Abuse by Dr. Thomas Plante of Stanford University and Santa Clara University states that "approximately 4% of priests during the past half century (and mostly in the 1960s and 1970s) have had a sexual experience with a minor" which "is consistent with male clergy from other religious traditions and is significantly lower than the general adult male population which may double these numbers".[7][8] Additionally, according to Newsweek magazine, the figure in the Catholic Church is similar to that in the rest of the adult population.[9]
    Actually, I made some statements earlier about celibacy attracting child molesters, and was countered with a similar statistic. Surprised? I know I was.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    It's funny that when a preacher gets caught with their hand in the cookie jar, it's usually the congregation that steps up to defend them, not because they agree with what they did, but because they've been trained since early childhood that priests and ministers get to follow different rules because they're "closer to God". We can look at case after case after case where Catholic priests get caught molesting altar boys and they have their congregations standing right behind them to support them.
    Follow different rules? I think most people expect more of a religious leader than other people. Those expectations aren't always met, of course, but I really don't believe we tend to forgive religious leaders of actions we'd condemn on others.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Yes, there probably is wisdom in some of the things you mentioned, but you don't need religion to do any of that. It can be done entirely secularly.
    It can be, no doubt. Whether it is as likely to be done secularly as in a religious setting is highly debatable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    It's new. The same law also lowers the legal age for women to get married to 14 and makes it illegal for women to get an education and a job. Really progressive thinkers, those Muslims.
    But are the Muslim extremists really the rule, or are they the exception?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I think pretty much everyone would. Honestly, anyone who is only acting good because they're afraid of some imaginary father figure in the sky punishing them after they die is pretty unstable to begin with. Those people, we need to find and get out of the gene pool as fast as we can.
    But people who are taught service to fellow man and devotion to family are more likely to live those principles than those who are not. Sure, non religious people can do the same thing, but it seems to me that hearing people you respect espousing and living those principles is a positive influence on most of us.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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