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Should America deploy troops to Syria?

Should America deploy troops to Syria?

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No

    Votes: 93 87.7%
  • Yes, but only Special Forces troops

    Votes: 5 4.7%
  • No. Maybe in the future.

    Votes: 8 7.5%

  • Total voters
    106
We no longer have a national debt problem?

no. it's simply that the cost for utilizing airstrikes in Syria isn't significant, and the potential savings are immense.

"This national myth is my all time favorite. Not only is Social Security NOT BROKE–IT IS THE ONLY FEDERAL PROGRAM WHICH IS FULLY FUNDED. I repeat–SOCIAL SECURITY IS FULLY FUNDED, ALWAYS HAS BEEN. (Source: Understanding Social Security in One Easy Lesson | Mother Jones) As for the claim that Social Security absorbs most of our GDP–that is patently false. Social Security presently costs approximately 4.5% of GDP and is estimated to increase to 6% of GDP by fiscal year 2030. (Source : Understanding Social Security in One Easy Lesson | Mother Jones) That is a far cry from the GOP and Wall Street claims that some 80% or more of GDP will be sucked dry by Social Security. In fact, the federal government OWES THE SOCIAL SECURITY TRUST FUND more than $2.669 TRILLION DOLLARS, according to the report issued by the Financial Management Service of the US Department of Treasury. The Medicare Trust Fund (hospital and supplementary medical) is also owed some $347, 521 BILLION DOLLARS by the feds. (Source : Social Security Institute | Trust Fund Bait and Switch) This was revealed by the National Committee to Preserve Social Security and Medicare. Somehow, this ‘inconvenient truth’ has escaped both the President’s and Congress’ attention. The real problem lies in the fact that the government has continually raided the fund all of us have paid into–to subsidize corporate tax breaks, unbridled Pentagon spending and what has become routine Wall Street bankster raids on the public dime."

Lies Linking Social Security to the National Debt | MyFDL

:roll: right. I think I'll go with the CBO and common damn sense rather than a liberal blogger using Mother Jones in his desperation to defend a failing entitlement system and pretend there is no little man behind the green curtain.

MoSurveyor said:
So they don't count interest paid to the SS Fund as part of the SS Fund even though those are T-bills sitting in there?

given that drawing funds from the General Fund is drawing funds from the General Funds, no. Nor are those Treasuries sitting in the SS vault - they are, after all, non-tradeable. Else the SS Fund could have traded them long ago for something that would have actually secured a source of funding.



SS could be fully funded by drawing out it's IOU's from the General Fund. For the next 20 years. If we were sitting on a $2.6 Trillion Surplus.

Unfortunately, we aren't sitting on a $2.6 Trillion Surplus, and the hope is that the country will survive for more than just the next two decades. So the reality is that SS is currently running a deficit, forcing it to lean on the General Fund, and that when Medicare goes down (in ten years), it will drag SS with it.
 
no. it's simply that the cost for utilizing airstrikes in Syria isn't significant, and the potential savings are immense.

Who has said our only involvement would be airsrikes? The Pentagon has said that ground troops would be necessary to secure the nuclear facilities.


:roll: right. I think I'll go with the CBO and common damn sense rather than a liberal blogger using Mother Jones in his desperation to defend a failing entitlement system and pretend there is no little man behind the green curtain.

Mother Jones says the same thing that Mother Jones says, that SS has a $2.6 trillion dollar surplus.
 
no. it's simply that the cost for utilizing airstrikes in Syria isn't significant, and the potential savings are immense.

Who has said our only involvement would be airsrikes? The Pentagon has said that ground troops would be necessary to secure the nuclear facilities.


right. I think I'll go with the CBO and common damn sense rather than a liberal blogger using Mother Jones in his desperation to defend a failing entitlement system and pretend there is no little man behind the green curtain.

As of April 2012, Investments held by the Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance Trust Funds:
"
2,696,489,127

"
Time series investments held at end of month
 
The U.S. Federal Fund’s annual deficits are the sole cause of the increases in the national debt. The two largest disbursements are interest on the federal debt ($400 billion) and the defense budget ($800 billion), which combined is 44 percent of the total. Obviously, nothing can be done about the interest expense. The defense budget is another matter."

So do we take the body armor, bullets, and maintenance parts away from the troop...or do we get the trillion dollar Defense Contracts under control? I'll tell you what they traditionally do.

No Senator lobbies for the preservaiton of a program that actually locally affects the troop. There's no money in it. But there is plenty of money and jobs in programs like nuclear sub and F/A-22 programs for his state isn't there? This is why they will always strip the military bare while the average American supports cutting the "Defense."
 
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So do we take the body armor, bullets, and maintenance parts away from the troop...or do we get the trillion dollar Defense Contracts under control? I'll tell you what they traditionally do.

No Senator lobbies for the preservaiton of a program that actually locally affects the troop. There's no money in it. But there is plenty of money and jobs in programs like nuclear sub and F/A-22 programs for his state isn't there? This is why they will always strip the military bare while the average American supports cutting the "Defense."

The Presidents plan is to cut the number of troops since we have ended one war and are ending the second war, cutting our nuclear stockpile, so there should be more body armor to go around. We spend almost as much on military as the rest of the world combined. If we are ever to address our deficit spending, excessive military spending will have to be cut.

If you are in favor of increasing federal spending and cutting revenues, vote for Romney.
 
The Presidents plan is to cut the number of troops since we have ended one war and are ending the second war, cutting our nuclear stockpile, so there should be more body armor to go around. We spend almost as much on military as the rest of the world combined. If we are ever to address our deficit spending, excessive military spending will have to be cut.

If you are in favor of increasing federal spending and cutting revenues, vote for Romney.

Cutting troop numbers is necessary. The Marine Corps is 30,000 too fat and the Army was fat to begin with. Romney would continue what is already happening. Cutting a nuclear stockpile does nothing but get rid of physical crap already paid for. And there is plenty of body armor now. But you're still not getting this. In the end, they will take from the troop and continue spending on Contracts that have long outlived their expiration dates. We spend more on our "Defense" than any other because we feed state businesses. Like I stated, when troops crossed the Iraqi border in 2003 without body armor and torn NBC suits, programs like the F-A-22 (never to be used for ground support) were getting trillions.

The idea that "cutting defense spending" is going to be well thought out is criminal. It will be as it always is. The troop will suffer, while state business continue getting checks cut.

Oh...and they will cut the throats of teachers as well. It doesn't matter who is in the White House. They all seek the protection of their states and the Contracts/Social Programs therein. All else is game.....which is education and the actual military.

Are you voting for Obama because he is "liberal?" Perhaps the idea that we have to vote for either the "liberal" or the "conservative" is why we the people deserve what we get. In my opinion, I deserve beter than OPbama and Romney. I certainly didn't do my job for two decades so my country could be in the hands of these kinds of people.
 
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Cutting troop numbers is necessary. The Marine Corps is 30,000 too fat and the Army was fat to begin with. Romney would continue what is already happening. Cutting a nuclear stockpile does nothing but get rid of physical crap already paid for. And there is plenty of body armor now. But you're still not getting this. In the end, they will take from the troop and continue spending on Contracts that have long outlived their expiration dates. We spend more on our "Defense" than any other because we feed state businesses. Like I stated, when troops crossed the Iraqi border in 2003 without body armor and torn NBC suits, programs like the F-A-22 (never to be used for ground support) were getting trillions.

The idea that "cutting defense spending" is going to be well thought out is criminal. It will be as it always is. The troop will suffer, while state business continue getting checks cut.

Oh...and they will cut the throats of teachers as well. It doesn't matter who is in the White House. They all seek the protection of their states and the Contracts/Social Programs therein. All else is game.....which is education and the actual military.

Are you voting for Obama because he is "liberal?" Perhaps the idea that we have to vote for either the "liberal" or the "conservative" is why we the people deserve what we get. In my opinion, I deserve beter than OPbama and Romney. I certainly didn't do my job for two decades so my country could be in the hands of these kinds of people.

Right, and it won't really matter very much which one is elected because (1) there isn't really that much difference between their politics, and (2) nothing is going to change until Congress changes. Those "contracts that have long outlived their expiration dates" will continue because the big donors want them to continue, plain and simple. If we get into another war, and the troops are ill equipped, then there will be another push to increase defense spending, most of which won't go to the troops.
 
Cutting troop numbers is necessary. The Marine Corps is 30,000 too fat and the Army was fat to begin with. Romney would continue what is already happening.

and yet, in at least my MOS, apparently this year is going to be another Great SNCO Giveaway. It's almost as if we are trying to get people up into the "retirement secured" ranks before sequestration hits hardest in order to justify the money, rather than the other way round.

The idea that "cutting defense spending" is going to be well thought out is criminal. It will be as it always is. The troop will suffer, while state business continue getting checks cut.

True. The F-22 and F-35 won't risk severe cuts. The F-35 has a part made in what - 500 congressional districts? Tuition Assistance for force-professionalization and unit operational funding will get the ax instead.
 
Just when I thought people had decided it was a bad idea to be the world police and people post questions like this -___-
 
and yet, in at least my MOS, apparently this year is going to be another Great SNCO Giveaway. It's almost as if we are trying to get people up into the "retirement secured" ranks before sequestration hits hardest in order to justify the money, rather than the other way round.

I have never been one of those to talk about the "Old Corps." In fact, I have always thought that today's Corps is the smartest its ever been. And when we consider that Marines have re-enlisted over and over with absolute certainty that they will re-deploy to a combat zone, today's all volunteer force is far more focused than the Vietnam era draftees.

But over the last year I have seen such a streak of apathy towards Marines from so-called leaders that I will state that our numbers have grown too fast and too many undeserving souls have been promoted because of it. Marines routinely deploy more than any other, but because of the 9/11 era deployments, we have reduced deployments to spread sheets. We get back from deployment and immediately look towards building the next spread sheet for the next one coming up. We have lot our ability to generally care about the individual Marine. We are exhausted. Throw in this extra 30,000 that really doesn't belong and you have an organization that is too big to be as specialized as we used to be. We start losing that theme of proper discipline. Rank becomes a second consideration. Policies become as brittle as concrete.

For a year I saw this whenever I made a trip to Camp Leatherneck. I had my day pack fall off the back of my MATV somewhere in Gereshk. I actually had to get two full bird Colonel's signatures on a missing gear statement in order to get the Staff Sergeant at Supply to re-issue me (a Master Sergeant) a poncho liner. This is because brittle policies to command the masses have replaced the responsibility of leaders to simply care for their Marines. Here's another one..... I was traveling with my Terp back through Leatherneck from Kabul. I needed to pick up our BAT Systems on my way to Lashkar Gah for my Team. However, I couldn't take my Terp into the building where I needed to pick up the system. That's the policy. However, another policy states that I can't leave my Terp unattended. So...in order to accomplish my mission, I needed to break one policy to follow another! Mission accomplishment and caring for Marines has been supplanted by a never ending pile of contradictory policies made by leaders who find themselves competing with each other for promotion with little regard to how this affects anything outside the comfy "wire." I returned to the States to find that this attitude has infected Lejeune and Pendleton.

I believe the further the Marine Corps gets from the 9/11 era the better it will get again. So I am all for stripping the Corps back to a more manageble number. But I retire September 30 (Terminal June 30), so this is for your generation to gain control back. Good luck.
 
I have never been one of those to talk about the "Old Corps." In fact, I have always thought that today's Corps is the smartest its ever been. And when we consider that Marines have re-enlisted over and over with absolute certainty that they will re-deploy to a combat zone, today's all volunteer force is far more focused than the Vietnam era draftees.

But over the last year I have seen such a streak of apathy towards Marines from so-called leaders that I will state that our numbers have grown too fast and too many undeserving souls have been promoted because of it. Marines routinely deploy more than any other, but because of the 9/11 era deployments, we have reduced deployments to spread sheets. We get back from deployment and immediately look towards building the next spread sheet for the next one coming up. We have lot our ability to generally care about the individual Marine. We are exhausted. Throw in this extra 30,000 that really doesn't belong and you have an organization that is too big to be as specialized as we used to be. We start losing that theme of proper discipline. Rank becomes a second consideration. Policies become as brittle as concrete.

For a year I saw this whenever I made a trip to Camp Leatherneck. I had my day pack fall off the back of my MATV somewhere in Gereshk. I actually had to get two full bird Colonel's signatures on a missing gear statement in order to get the Staff Sergeant at Supply to re-issue me (a Master Sergeant) a poncho liner. This is because brittle policies to command the masses have replaced the responsibility of leaders to simply care for their Marines. Here's another one..... I was traveling with my Terp back through Leatherneck from Kabul. I needed to pick up our BAT Systems on my way to Lashkar Gah for my Team. However, I couldn't take my Terp into the building where I needed to pick up the system. That's the policy. However, another policy states that I can't leave my Terp unattended. So...in order to accomplish my mission, I needed to break one policy to follow another! Mission accomplishment and caring for Marines has been supplanted by a never ending pile of contradictory policies made by leaders who find themselves competing with each other for promotion with little regard to how this affects anything outside the comfy "wire." I returned to the States to find that this attitude has infected Lejeune and Pendleton.

I believe the further the Marine Corps gets from the 9/11 era the better it will get again. So I am all for stripping the Corps back to a more manageble number. But I retire September 30 (Terminal June 30), so this is for your generation to gain control back. Good luck.

The bottom line to all of this is that the country is not really at war. The military may be at war, but there is no draft, no declaration of war, no expectation that civilians will be involved in the war in any way unless t hey have a family member in the military. It simply is not fair to keep sending the same people back again and again into combat. The current wars have gone on longer than WWII already, and are still going on. There are some signs that they may end soon, but there is no guarantee of that.

If we have to go to war, if there is no reasonable alternative, then the entire country should be on a war footing. The small, limited wars resemble the ones described by Orwell. War is peace, you know.
 
The bottom line to all of this is that the country is not really at war. The military may be at war, but there is no draft, no declaration of war, no expectation that civilians will be involved in the war in any way unless t hey have a family member in the military. It simply is not fair to keep sending the same people back again and again into combat. The current wars have gone on longer than WWII already, and are still going on. There are some signs that they may end soon, but there is no guarantee of that.

If we have to go to war, if there is no reasonable alternative, then the entire country should be on a war footing. The small, limited wars resemble the ones described by Orwell. War is peace, you know.

I believe that we are going to be engaged throughout the Middle East for decades to come. People will do their best to believe that one event has nothing to do with another, but ultimately everything we have done has everything to do with what exists between Cairo and Islamabad. But we aren't a people (Europe and the U.S.) that like to see things for what they are. We want everything to fit into our definitions. We want the international laws we created over the centuries to be upheld by the rest of the world. We want their perspectives to equal our perspectives. This is why when Sunni fighters were entering Iraq from all countries to slaughter Shia, we only see "Iraq." This is why when we learned publicly that Al-Queda is made of the region's citizens, we only see Afghanistan. We want everything to be defined and packaged into neat borders and a uniformed enemy. The problem is that we are wrong.

We want to protest a "war for oil" and then bitch that gasoline and the price of bread is too much. We want to preach about freedom and liberty and criticize our relationship with Cold War dictators and then criticize a move to rid ourselves of one. We want to declare that we were at war with Nazis...not Germans. That we are at war with terrorists, not Muslims. We put more energy into denying truths and upholding our illusions than we do facing the world for what it is. In the mean time, the rest of the world laughs as they get away with breaking our rules of international organization and codes of war. Perhaps this is because, unlike nations in the modernized West, their borders make no sense and very much rely on oppressive dictators to maintain a sense of stability? Perhaps its because, unlike nations in the West, their populations have not had the chance to sort themselves out behind natural borders?

I believe that we are in a constant state of war and we fool ourselves into believing otherwise because we can afford to make ourselves stupid and ignorant. And because of this, the country will never be on the same war footing without a Nazi, Soviet, Japanese, North Korean, or North Vietnamese uniform to oppose. And don't let them try to make sense of their inabilities to process the world they live in. Whenever they whine about Afghanistan or Iraq not attacking us, as them to point out the American cities that Germans and Soviets attacked. Or ask them what American city Saddam Hussein attacked when he crossed into Kuwait in 1990. Or what American city Somalis or Bosnians attacked. Protestors are often self deluded and convenient about what they protest...and when they protest it.
 
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I will submit my personal opinion later in the thread. Simple question, complicated issue.

No; I think we're kind of 'trooped out' right now. I think that handling it like we did Libya is the right move.
 
I believe that we are going to be engaged throughout the Middle East for decades to come. People will do their best to believe that one event has nothing to do with another, but ultimately everything we have done has everything to do with what exists between Cairo and Islamabad. But we aren't a people (Europe and the U.S.) that like to see things for what they are. We want everything to fit into our definitions. We want the international laws we created over the centuries to be upheld by the rest of the world. We want their perspectives to equal our perspectives. This is why when Sunni fighters were entering Iraq from all countries to slaughter Shia, we only see "Iraq." This is why when we learned publicly that Al-Queda is made of the region's citizens, we only see Afghanistan. We want everything to be defined and packaged into neat borders and a uniformed enemy. The problem is that we are wrong.

We want to protest a "war for oil" and then bitch that gasoline and the price of bread is too much. We want to preach about freedom and liberty and criticize our relationship with Cold War dictators and then criticize a move to rid ourselves of one. We want to declare that we were at war with Nazis...not Germans. That we are at war with terrorists, not Muslims. We put more energy into denying truths and upholding our illusions than we do facing the world for what it is. In the mean time, the rest of the world laughs as they get away with breaking our rules of international organization and codes of war. Perhaps this is because, unlike nations in the modernized West, their borders make no sense and very much rely on oppressive dictators to maintain a sense of stability? Perhaps its because, unlike nations in the West, their populations have not had the chance to sort themselves out behind natural borders?

I believe that we are in a constant state of war and we fool ourselves into believing otherwise because we can afford to make ourselves stupid and ignorant.

Not sure the same people are doing the same bitching, but it's possible. The point is, if the world is to be at war constantly, we're a sad species. Yes, we make distinctions between Nazis and germans. But it was easier for us to see not all Germans as Nazis than it is for many to see that all Muslims aren't terrorist, or all Japnases weren't resposnible for Pearl Habor. We can dehumanize with the best of them, and the more different, the easier.

But, rule of law is suppose to be above this. The rules set the bar, and is intented to temper our habit of being selective and wildly inconsistent. Those who believe in law, I think, understand this. I'm reluctant to go down a path that ignores rule of law.
 
Not sure the same people are doing the same bitching, but it's possible. The point is, if the world is to be at war constantly, we're a sad species. Yes, we make distinctions between Nazis and germans. But it was easier for us to see not all Germans as Nazis than it is for many to see that all Muslims aren't terrorist, or all Japnases weren't resposnible for Pearl Habor. We can dehumanize with the best of them, and the more different, the easier.

But, rule of law is suppose to be above this. The rules set the bar, and is intented to temper our habit of being selective and wildly inconsistent. Those who believe in law, I think, understand this. I'm reluctant to go down a path that ignores rule of law.

Actually, there's not that great a distinction to be made between the Nazis and the Germans of that era. The Germans supported the nazis and made their crimes possible - indeed, the German Army itself took part in some of those crimes. Hitler was incredibly popular with the average German until the war started going badly.

The average Muslim has a far looser connection to terrorists than the average German had to the Nazis, although I will admit that after the war it was really difficult to find any German who admitted to being a nazi.
 
Not sure the same people are doing the same bitching, but it's possible. The point is, if the world is to be at war constantly, we're a sad species. Yes, we make distinctions between Nazis and germans. But it was easier for us to see not all Germans as Nazis than it is for many to see that all Muslims aren't terrorist, or all Japnases weren't resposnible for Pearl Habor. We can dehumanize with the best of them, and the more different, the easier.

But, rule of law is suppose to be above this. The rules set the bar, and is intented to temper our habit of being selective and wildly inconsistent. Those who believe in law, I think, understand this. I'm reluctant to go down a path that ignores rule of law.

But we are at war constantly. We place sanctions on countries, withold goods and resources, deny accesses, encourage good behavior in accordance to our values, etc. We just have this idea in our heads that "peace" exists if somebody's not firing a weapon. In the mean time we kill through sanctions. With or without the gun we motivate to protect our economic securities and progress. What did Clausewitz express? "War is the continuation of Politik by other means?" I think he had it wrong. "Armed conflict is merely a continuation of war."

We were at war with "Germans" and "Japs" until the current fad of political correctness allowed us to pretend that Nazis weren't Germans. The further we get away from the event where we have no intimate relationship we believe ourselves to be more civilized than those that faced it. Today, we have the luxury of observing war through a television and pretend that "others" sent our men off to war. That "others" wanted revenge. That "others" are just barabaric. In other words, we fool ourselves in believing that we sit on a high pedestal above the gutters of the world. This is all due to convenience. Nothing more.

The Rule of Law is important. You are right. Absolutely. The problem is that the international Rule of Law caters to Western perspectives. What Arab or African nation was invited to Geneva to make laws after World War II? What Arab or African nation drew in its own border that Western nations observe with earnest today and demand compliance? Our "Rule of Laws" cater to organizing the world into our idea of functional organization and manners. The problem is that much of the world has not evolved their civilizations beyond the basic order which is family, tribe and religion. We insist that man's law trumps God's law to an entire region that knows only God. And when they do not cater to our idea of global manners we seek to label them uncivilized, incapable of democracizing, and backwards.

You know what I see when I see Sunni slaughtering Shia or the many other non-Arab tribes across the region? I see Europe's history of cleansing their populaitons and eventually forming natural borders. I think of America's Civil War where national organization and civil conformity had to come to an agreement. I see a region full of people sorting itself out after centuries of colonization and installed dictators forced an illusion of stability. But our "rules" keep them pinned behind these unnaural borders don't they? Our rules insist that since Europeans have already gone through their cleansing that no one else is allowed to. The truth is that our rules are meant to keep production around the world flowing. It doesn't matter who is oppressed or what the result is (terrorists and mass international terrorist organizations). And the most pathetic of our Western Rules is the Rule of soveriegnty. This is perhaps the grandest insult to civilization in history. Kings, Kaisers, and Tsars of the past must be laughing at us.
 
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I believe that we are going to be engaged throughout the Middle East for decades to come. People will do their best to believe that one event has nothing to do with another, but ultimately everything we have done has everything to do with what exists between Cairo and Islamabad. But we aren't a people (Europe and the U.S.) that like to see things for what they are. We want everything to fit into our definitions. We want the international laws we created over the centuries to be upheld by the rest of the world. We want their perspectives to equal our perspectives. This is why when Sunni fighters were entering Iraq from all countries to slaughter Shia, we only see "Iraq." This is why when we learned publicly that Al-Queda is made of the region's citizens, we only see Afghanistan. We want everything to be defined and packaged into neat borders and a uniformed enemy. The problem is that we are wrong.

I'm not sure what you're basing the assumption "that one event has nothing to do with another" from. It has become the dominant narrative surrounding the ME since the initial Afghanistan invasion, that Al-Qaeda has drawn from across the region. This is a recognized fact by 'Hawks' and 'Doves' who both use the fact for their respective position. International law is unequivocally a 'Western' concept based on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Under this declaration 'Rights' become codified, and normative. The contention arises from states not following such a declaration (many ME nations). One declaration that glaringly highlights non-compatibility has to be equality between men/Women. Thus, some commentators identify this platform within 'Culture' and cultural specificity and issues become insurmountable without challenging ideology and domestic structures (Tried within Iraq, though to early too comment on the outcomes).

We want to protest a "war for oil" and then bitch that gasoline and the price of bread is too much. We want to preach about freedom and liberty and criticize our relationship with Cold War dictators and then criticize a move to rid ourselves of one. We want to declare that we were at war with Nazis...not Germans. That we are at war with terrorists, not Muslims. We put more energy into denying truths and upholding our illusions than we do facing the world for what it is. In the mean time, the rest of the world laughs as they get away with breaking our rules of international organization and codes of war. Perhaps this is because, unlike nations in the modernized West, their borders make no sense and very much rely on oppressive dictators to maintain a sense of stability? Perhaps its because, unlike nations in the West, their populations have not had the chance to sort themselves out behind natural borders?


I believe that we are in a constant state of war and we fool ourselves into believing otherwise because we can afford to make ourselves stupid and ignorant. And because of this, the country will never be on the same war footing without a Nazi, Soviet, Japanese, North Korean, or North Vietnamese uniform to oppose. And don't let them try to make sense of their inabilities to process the world they live in. Whenever they whine about Afghanistan or Iraq not attacking us, as them to point out the American cities that Germans and Soviets attacked. Or ask them what American city Saddam Hussein attacked when he crossed into Kuwait in 1990. Or what American city Somalis or Bosnians attacked. Protestors are often self deluded and convenient about what they protest...and when they protest it.

You're simply describing the position set out byThomas Hobbes in the 17th century who was the first to offer some clarity on International Order. Hobbes suggested 'the international system is anarchic in nature (dog eat dog) and private citizens look to domestic leaders for protection. So, it is not original thinking looking at international order in this way. Looking more contemporary (although based on Hobbes), Realism comtexulises international order in such a way. Realists avoid looking for a Utopian ideal (this is the main split from the Liberalism thesis) and comment as things are, here and now, and not what one would like things to be. Proponents of such an approach look to Henry Kissinger.
 
deploy troops, no.....cruise missiles, yes.....
 
You're simply describing the position set out byThomas Hobbes in the 17th century who was the first to offer some clarity on International Order. Hobbes suggested 'the international system is anarchic in nature (dog eat dog) and private citizens look to domestic leaders for protection. So, it is not original thinking looking at international order in this way. Looking more contemporary (although based on Hobbes), Realism comtexulises international order in such a way. Realists avoid looking for a Utopian ideal (this is the main split from the Liberalism thesis) and comment as things are, here and now, and not what one would like things to be. Proponents of such an approach look to Henry Kissinger.


Again...all through the lens of the West.

The world is divided in half. International laws absolutely caters to the West. They do so because they originated from Europe and were originally invented by empires that sought a higher idea of protection from neighbors. Borders and trade agreements have created the international order. But these international laws make no sense to the Middle East because they did not draw their borders. They struggle today to sort out their populations to the criticism of the West who did the same thing centuries ago. The difference is that we can't bring ourselves to recognize that our idea of international order has and is wrong.

Hobbes was very bright. He obviously understood human nature. It should be obvious to all that like minded people attract each other. The basis for all human organization has always gone back to "tribe." We Americans may be from the world's tribes, but we have come together under a certain tribe mentality (call it nationalism, liberal democracy, whatever). For most of the world, "tribe" absolutely goes back ethnic root and/or religious root. The only nation in Europe not to have its borders re-drawn after World War II was Yugoslavia. And what happened to that as soon as the Cold War ended? It dissolved into ethnic cleansing and genocide. The Middle East is full of nations where the same is happening. There's a reason Iraq should probably be three seperate territories. "Tribe" was allowed to sort itself out in Europe and elsewhere. Hell, continental Europe hosted two World Wars over it to cap off centuries of ethnic cleansing from Spain to Russia. But in the Middle East, tribes that historically did not get along were forced together and tribes that historically did get along were separated on either side of a European made border. And the Cold War merely maintained that order while we called it "stability" and "peace." Peace for who? Were it not for the flow of oil, the "Yugoslavias" of the Middle East would have torn itself apart a long time ago. But our international order hinges on half of the world not being privileged enough to appreciate Hobbes.

Kissinger saw through the lens of the nuclear Cold War. Finding ways to accomodate everythiing we don't believe in was understood. But we don't live in the Cold War anymore. People conveniently forget that when addressing the world they live in today.
 
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Again...all through the lens of the West.

The world is divided in half. International laws absolutely caters to the West. They do so because they originated from Europe and were originally invented by empires that sought a higher idea of protection from neighbors. Borders and trade agreements have created the international order. But these international laws make no sense to the Middle East because they did not draw their borders. They struggle today to sort out their populations to the criticism of the West who did the same thing centuries ago. The difference is that we can't bring ourselves to recognize that our idea of international order has and is wrong.

Hobbes was very bright. He obviously understood human nature. It should be obvious to all that like minded people attract each other. The basis for all human organization has always gone back to "tribe." We Americans may be from the world's tribes, but we have come together under a certain tribe mentality (call it nationalism, liberal democracy, whatever). For most of the world, "tribe" absolutely goes back ethnic root and/or religious root. The only nation in Europe not to have its borders re-drawn after World War II was Yugoslavia. And what happened to that as soon as the Cold War ended? It dissolved into ethnic cleansing and genocide. The Middle East is full of nations where the same is happening. There's a reason Iraq should probably be three seperate territories. "Tribe" was allowed to sort itself out in Europe and elsewhere. Hell, continental Europe hosted two World Wars over it to cap off centuries of ethnic cleansing from Spain to Russia. But in the Middle East, tribes that historically did not get along were forced together and tribes that historically did get along were separated on either side of a European made border. And the Cold War merely maintained that order while we called it "stability" and "peace." Peace for who? Were it not for the flow of oil, the "Yugoslavias" of the Middle East would have torn itself apart a long time ago. But our international order hinges on half of the world not being privileged enough to appreciate Hobbes.

Kissinger saw through the lens of the nuclear Cold War. Finding ways to accomodate everythiing we don't believe in was understood. But we don't live in the Cold War anymore. People conveniently forget that when addressing the world they live in today.

If we were to just allow the people of the Middle East to sort out their own political boundaries and governments the way Europe did over hundreds of years, would it ever become peaceful? Would it take hundreds of years there, too? Would there have to be the equivalent of WWI and WWII to sort things out?

I wonder.

The difference is that Europeans were fighting with swords and muskets, not with nuclear missiles and automatic weapons. The other difference is that they were left alone to sort it out on their own.
 
Republicans and Neo Cons... YOU are destroying this country with YOUR wars! The Dollar is almost a garbage currency because of YOUR war debts. Thats right... war debt. Enough already! How many people and cultures do you have to destroy before you are satisfied?!
 
But we are at war constantly. We place sanctions on countries, withold goods and resources, deny accesses, encourage good behavior in accordance to our values, etc. We just have this idea in our heads that "peace" exists if somebody's not firing a weapon. In the mean time we kill through sanctions. With or without the gun we motivate to protect our economic securities and progress. What did Clausewitz express? "War is the continuation of Politik by other means?" I think he had it wrong. "Armed conflict is merely a continuation of war."

We were at war with "Germans" and "Japs" until the current fad of political correctness allowed us to pretend that Nazis weren't Germans. The further we get away from the event where we have no intimate relationship we believe ourselves to be more civilized than those that faced it. Today, we have the luxury of observing war through a television and pretend that "others" sent our men off to war. That "others" wanted revenge. That "others" are just barabaric. In other words, we fool ourselves in believing that we sit on a high pedestal above the gutters of the world. This is all due to convenience. Nothing more.

The Rule of Law is important. You are right. Absolutely. The problem is that the international Rule of Law caters to Western perspectives. What Arab or African nation was invited to Geneva to make laws after World War II? What Arab or African nation drew in its own border that Western nations observe with earnest today and demand compliance? Our "Rule of Laws" cater to organizing the world into our idea of functional organization and manners. The problem is that much of the world has not evolved their civilizations beyond the basic order which is family, tribe and religion. We insist that man's law trumps God's law to an entire region that knows only God. And when they do not cater to our idea of global manners we seek to label them uncivilized, incapable of democracizing, and backwards.

You know what I see when I see Sunni slaughtering Shia or the many other non-Arab tribes across the region? I see Europe's history of cleansing their populaitons and eventually forming natural borders. I think of America's Civil War where national organization and civil conformity had to come to an agreement. I see a region full of people sorting itself out after centuries of colonization and installed dictators forced an illusion of stability. But our "rules" keep them pinned behind these unnaural borders don't they? Our rules insist that since Europeans have already gone through their cleansing that no one else is allowed to. The truth is that our rules are meant to keep production around the world flowing. It doesn't matter who is oppressed or what the result is (terrorists and mass international terrorist organizations). And the most pathetic of our Western Rules is the Rule of soveriegnty. This is perhaps the grandest insult to civilization in history. Kings, Kaisers, and Tsars of the past must be laughing at us.

We are excessively involved, yes. As to whether that is all war? Well, I don't want to devolve too much into defintions.

I also see no political correctness involved in calling people what they were. We were not always just in our actions, even in WWII. We kidnaped Japanese peoples from other countries, not soldiers, but civilians, for example, and kept them prisoner, using them as barganing chips. Held them in Iowa.

But I digress. The point was they were not, factually, the people we were fighting.

You are correct that some nations were not invited, and that they don't exactly see our law as theirs. That's a little problem. Us not following the laws we agreed to? That's a larger problem. That is us not following the rules we created and agreed to, and hold other nations to (remember Iraq invading Kuwait as an example?). This speaks poorly on on us. First, we should remove the plank fromour eye, and then we can address the rest of the world. They might move further ahead without our interfernece than they have with it. As DHN points out, Europe largely did sort it out.
 
Republicans and Neo Cons... YOU are destroying this country with YOUR wars! The Dollar is almost a garbage currency because of YOUR war debts. Thats right... war debt. Enough already! How many people and cultures do you have to destroy before you are satisfied?!

Don't forget the Democrats. You know, you guys controlled the House for all of the Iraq War, most of the Afghan war. You controlled the Senate through all of it. Finally, your "hope and change" candidate not only doubled down in Afghanistan but sent air assets and advisors into Libya.
BTW, you got proof of these so called "war debts"? Pretty sure the big gov't practices of TARP, bailouts, etc are the reason we're in so much debt. Not to mention years of piling on the debt prior to the past 11 years. Get a clue bro.
 
If we were to just allow the people of the Middle East to sort out their own political boundaries and governments the way Europe did over hundreds of years, would it ever become peaceful? Would it take hundreds of years there, too? Would there have to be the equivalent of WWI and WWII to sort things out?

I wonder.

The difference is that Europeans were fighting with swords and muskets, not with nuclear missiles and automatic weapons. The other difference is that they were left alone to sort it out on their own.

Let em kill each other. Nukes can't reach us.
 
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