View Poll Results: Is it time to double down on green energy that has never been more promising?

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Thread: Obama Green double down question

  1. #81
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    ??? Locomotives use diesel engines to produce the electricity and, last I heard, diesel engines are considered to be internal combustion engines. What benefits do you see from replacing gasoline engines with diesel engines?
    None at all. I used locomotives as an example of the efficiency of electric motors over IC motors. As you've noted, the diesels are only used to generate electricity for the electric motors, not turn the power wheels.

    As I commented, if we're going to stick to proprietary fuels then at the very least we should use them to generate electricity for electric motors - similar to how hybrid cars work now - instead of using them as the primary source of motive power as most "common cars" do.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 04-24-12 at 12:24 PM.
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    ??? Locomotives use diesel engines to produce the electricity and, last I heard, diesel engines are considered to be internal combustion engines. What benefits do you see from replacing gasoline engines with diesel engines?
    Its not the ICE itself that is the issue, but how it is used.

    In series hybrids like locomotives and the Volt, the ICE is tuned to run at a single output.

    MOST of the inefficiencies in ICEs are in accelleration/decelleration cycles, which cause unburned fuel to go out the tailpipe. Tuning to a steady state allows an iCE to be as efficient as possible.

    Also, in a true series hybrid, battery banks are kept to the minimum size. The 40 mile electric only range of the Volt significantly increases the size (and expense) of its battery bank.

    An all-electric vehicle fleet offers significant advantages over time.

    It allows for the use of electricity generated by ANY means without replacing/modifying existing fleets.

    It also, as a "side effect" makes grid storage a reality, utilizing excess battery storage as batteries become cheaper and more efficient.

    That said, NG isn't the worst of the "transitional" fuels, as some reasearch is being done on renewable methane.

    Its just not a good idea to switch from one finite resource to another. It just perpetuates many of the problems that already exist with fossil fuels.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    We agree on quite a bit. ...

    Agreed that we will eventually move on to something else, but I would argue that the only role of government is to get out of the way. Natural gas is a promising avenue, but you and I are both old enough to remember Jimmy Carter and the disaster he created by insisting that we were almost out of natural gas. His government sponsored Synfuels Corp that was created to turn lignite into gas left a billion dollars of taxpayer money rusting alongside the Missouri River in North Dakota after Reagan turned off the subsidy spigot. Obama's "green energy" is just a rerun of that disaster.

    Agreed also that no development project ever comes in on time or within budget. ...
    It's my engineering and systems architect experience that influences my POV. Let me explain what my experience has lead me to think the way I do about some things. Developing the incorrect product or solution is better than not developing anything and just staying with what 'works'. The reason is that a lot will be learned by doing the wrong thing which helps get the right thing done sooner. The value of this is often be very large, exceeding by orders of magnitude the cost of the 'failed' product development. Private enterprise and some government directed 'trials' of ideas that fail never have the benefit value measured, doing that is not accurate and it doesn't follow accounting rules. Some of this his POV comes from sales staff coming in with a product concept a customer wants now; all we have to do is do detailed design and ship it. However, the engineer/architect knows that the technology is changing and the customer will not want what he asked for in 6 months because there new parts available that will out perform what he asked for. Part of my job was to visit the customer and show him what we could do, cost/performance in 9 months and have him ask for that. Is this clear enough to explain my POV?
    Sorry for my tardiness on this thread.

  4. #84
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Locomotives use diesel electric engines because the automotive clutch/transmission combination doesn't work with such huge loads. That's nothing like the hybrid automobiles that route the power through a battery. If you can arrange it, a guided tour through a real power plant - coal, gas, hydro, whatever - will prove enlightening.

    Maybe someday someone somewhere will invent a battery capable of storing the kind of energy needed for a car larger than a golf cart, but it hasn't happened yet. And if it ever does happen, I'm willing to bet it won't happen under a government contract or as a result of government subsidies.
    "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    Maybe someday someone somewhere will invent a battery capable of storing the kind of energy needed for a car larger than a golf cart, but it hasn't happened yet. And if it ever does happen, I'm willing to bet it won't happen under a government contract or as a result of government subsidies.
    See the 7-passenger Tesla Model S that has a 300 mile range and can go from 0 - 60 mph in 5.6 seconds.

    Model S | Tesla Motors
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    See the 7-passenger Tesla Model S that has a 300 mile range and can go from 0 - 60 mph in 5.6 seconds.

    Model S | Tesla Motors
    Beat me to it.....Dayum

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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
    I see...so those scientists that predicted a warming atmosphere, sea level rise, warmer oceans, melting Icecaps, increased greenhouse effect, Ozone depletion, species extinction, resource shortages...etc...were wrong?
    well you tell me. were the scientists that predicted a new global ice age, billions starving to death from over population in the 80's, and consistently rising temperatures over the last decade correct?

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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    well you tell me. were the scientists that predicted a new global ice age, billions starving to death from over population in the 80's, and consistently rising temperatures over the last decade correct?
    There was never a scientific consensus on a new global ice age that there has been for the last 5 years on AGW.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    Locomotives use diesel electric engines because the automotive clutch/transmission combination doesn't work with such huge loads. That's nothing like the hybrid automobiles that route the power through a battery. ...
    Yup. Well you're not exactly right. In a car the loads are not maintained as long as a locomotive. And in some hybrids the electric motor can run off the sum of the generator and battery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    Maybe someday someone somewhere will invent a battery capable of storing the kind of energy needed for a car larger than a golf cart, but it hasn't happened yet. And if it ever does happen, I'm willing to bet it won't happen under a government contract or as a result of government subsidies.
    Why? One thing you are still thinking is that there will be one private design team that will do it completely independently of everybody else's incremental successes and completely tossed out attempts that someplace would have to try. My experience in a private company that prides itself in leading edge development was mostly controlled by those that wanted to ship a version of what we had. You can win short term by doing that but loose long term.
    Last edited by OhIsee.Then; 04-24-12 at 08:03 PM.

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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    well you tell me. were the scientists that predicted a new global ice age, billions starving to death from over population in the 80's, and consistently rising temperatures over the last decade correct?
    Not yet...think long term here, the Atlantic conveyor is slowing down, has been for decades. If it stops, we get an ice age. We already have hundreds of million starving, and if food production is damaged....it may reach billions:

    In the Asian, African and Latin American countries, well over 500 million people are living in what the World Bank has called "absolute poverty"

    Every year 15 million children die of hunger

    For the price of one missile, a school full of hungry children could eat lunch every day for 5 years

    Throughout the 1990's more than 100 million children will die from illness and starvation. Those 100 million deaths could be prevented for the price of ten Stealth bombers, or what the world spends on its military in two days!

    The World Health Organization estimates that one-third of the world is well-fed, one-third is under-fed one-third is starving- Since you've entered this site at least 200 people have died of starvation. Over 4 million will die this year.

    One in twelve people worldwide is malnourished, including 160 million children under the age of 5. United Nations Food and Agriculture

    The world hunger problem: Facts, figures and statistics

    Temperatures have been rising...consistently. If you actually do not KNOW this...we are done, as you cannot debate this issue.

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