View Poll Results: Is it time to double down on green energy that has never been more promising?

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  • Yes

    17 50.00%
  • No

    15 44.12%
  • Other (Explain)

    2 5.88%
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Thread: Obama Green double down question

  1. #71
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    it's pretty funny you should mention 120 years ago. That was about just before the first time people like you started warning that the end of oil was just around the corner
    Fortunately...I have not lived quite that long, nor has the environmental cause...it is intereseting to note however,( that if you are accurate) which could happen, that people knew something was amiss that long ago.

    To bad we waited until now to pay attention.

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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
    Assuming current consumption rates, current oil reserves will be completely depleted by the year 2050. [3]"[/I]
    That sounds like it was written before fracking and the Bakken. It's been two centuries since Malthus worried about the world running out of food as the global population approached one billion. Now we've got seven billion people and we are nowhere near running out of food. I see no reason to take doomsday forecasts seriously, given their track record.

    Besides, you've already pointed to the link for turning almost anything into oil and that should reassure us all that oil is ultimately a renewable resource.
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  3. #73
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
    Fortunately...I have not lived quite that long, nor has the environmental cause...it is intereseting to note however,( that if you are accurate) which could happen, that people knew something was amiss that long ago.


    no. they were wrong. just like they were 20 years after that, and 20 years after that, and 20 years after that... and today.

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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
    I find it rather peculiar...that I place before you all, something revolutionary and capable of eliminating the very issues we all debate.

    And it is ignored...strange.
    This didn't fall on deaf ears. I already knew about it. This is the best alternative fuel system yet. It's a "twofer." You get rid of trash in an environmentally safe manner, and get energy out of the bargain. Companies working on this are already making bank.
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Despite Negative Press Renewable Energy Revenues Rapidly Expand in 2011

    "Solar, wind and biofuels saw global revenue expand by 31% in 2011. With all the negative hype put out by Big Oil and its acolytes, you’d have thought the green energy market had crashed rather than growing by a third.

    But investment in green energy rose only 5% over the year, which tells me that somebody is making a lot of money and others are losing out. Green Tech Media reports,

    “…costs of solar panels fell by more than 40 percent last year, while installations grew by 69 percent, yielding a 29-percent increase in solar market revenues last year, Clean Edge reported.”

    In the US, solar installations more than doubled, with 1.8 gigawatts in capacity added. That is roughly like two small nuclear plants."

    "Wind power turbines were also put in at record rates throughout the world in 2011, with China leading the way. By 2020, China will have large numbers of mega-wind installations, generating 148 gigawatts of power.

    The US is falling behind on wind installations. It only installed 6,800 megawatts worth in 2011. Altogether, wind now generates enough power to meet electricity demand in 10 million US homes. If there are roughly 60 million US households, that would mean we only have 50 million to go!

    There are lots of growing pains in this industry. Many start-ups will fail or be absorbed. An old electricity grid is often an obstacle. Battery power and life is still too limited. But we should be suspicious of the negative tone of a lot of press and political comment on renewable energy, since any business that expands revenue by a third in one year is anything but a basket case."

    Despite Negative Press Renewable Energy Revenues Rapidly Expand in 2011
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Most importantly, even though it would not effect the immediate supply of oil, it would heavily impact the futures market. Right now oil is in high demand not least because people see demand increasing faster than supply. Reverse (or seriously mitigate) those expectations, and you can expect to see an oil sell-off, which would cause the price to tumble.
    And to "Reverse (or seriously mitigate)" "demand increasing faster than supply" you're saying we need to increase supply like an SOB.
    What happens when the demand from China increases beyond those means to increase supply? We're right back where we started - trying to show supply is increasing as fast or faster than China's demand is increasing.

    In other words, we have to produce enough to keep up with China's demand.
    (Yes, I used "China" as a general source for "increase in demand" - it was less cumbersome than using "China/India/3rd world countries")

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    that is not accurate - and it is not what I have claimed. China's demand is part of current oil prices. China's demand was not appreciably higher 6 months ago:

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-v4dXXMBhCp...7.32.46+AM.png

    The price of gasoline at the pump swings much more wildly than mere Chinese demand - because it is not a product of simply Chinese Demand. As democrats are constantly pointing out (though misdiagnosing), the futures and commodities market plays a massive role in price variations. Perceived future supply vice demand increases or decreases off an assumed baseline, prices swing higher and lower at a greater variation than that produced by shifts in relative demand. Prices are swinging high right now because investors see that future supply will be artificially constrained, and disproportionately vulnerable to political instability. Change that perception, and they will swing low.
    So what are you trying to say now? That volitility is NOT caused by the small difference between supply and demand? Or that volitility is NOT in large part a function of the small difference between supply and demand?

    Or are you saying the oil companies are lying when they say the price at the pump is dependent on the price of oil?

    Or are you saying what I said several pages back, that one crazy Muslim's hot air has as much of an affect on global prices as anything else?


    Ed:
    As for your graph, straight line that thing then we'll talk about it. Care to guess what the straight-line graph will show?
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 04-24-12 at 08:31 AM. Reason: sp/clr
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post


    no. they were wrong. just like they were 20 years after that, and 20 years after that, and 20 years after that... and today.
    I see...so those scientists that predicted a warming atmosphere, sea level rise, warmer oceans, melting Icecaps, increased greenhouse effect, Ozone depletion, species extinction, resource shortages...etc...were wrong?

    Interesting considering these are all realities right now.

    Unless you wish to claim the facts we have studied, verified, and scientifically validated are fabricated.

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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    But basically this is the "use oil until it's no longer the cheapest source of energy, at which point we switch to the new cheapest form of energy" plan.
    You act like "switch to the new cheapest form of energy" is something you can do fast like throwing a track switch in a train yard. It's not as easy-peasy to extract oil from the economy as it is to get it out of a gushing well. Oil is too ubiquous for that. If we're forced to switch to something else too fast the train will wreck, not just change course. Did you earlier miss the ...

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    except that as you point out, green vehicles, [... delete useless and unrelated crap ...] is nowhere near our oil consumption.
    ... "it'll take decades to switch everything over even if we start today"? Start tomorrow or the next day, push the absolute limit on when we switch, and you'll end up with gas lines like the 70's with no close end in sight and the price of gas will make today's prices look like cheap by comparison.

    Crisis management is a poor way to steer a country.
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  9. #79
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Yup. If oil actually becomes a worse bet than alternatives in the near future, my bet is on NG. after a certain time horizon, however, I'm betting hydrogen.
    Oh, good, let's make the same mistake as before by using another proprietary and distributed fuel. Build up all those NG stations, then do the same thing for hydrogen, then do the same for ...??? Electricity in whatever form is most likely here to stay for a very, very long time. The means of producing it may change, the fuels/processes/whatever may change, but the electricity will still be there at our outlets. It's much easier to switch over all the power plants then it is to switch over all the power plants plus all the filling stations.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Electric is just another way of saying "Coal".
    Well, that's the standard Party Line, isn't it? You should check your sources. Most of our electrical power isn't from coal and the percentage from coal gets smaller every day.

    And then there's the coal plant that could, too*, so maybe we'll go that route. The point is it's still electricity whether it's coal, windmills, fission, or fusion or something we haven't even dreamed of yet.

    *Utility to Purchase Low-Carbon Power from Innovative Clean Coal Plant | Department of Energy

    Electric motors are by far the most efficient motors in the world. Electrical storage is an issue, yes, that's what we really need to work on. But if you think electric motors aren't the answer you just haven't looked. The Tesla Roadster can perform with the other European sports cars in that price range. Locomotives work very well running electrics - so well that even when they don't have wires to draw power they run a generator to power the electric motors. We pretty much went from steam power straight to electric. Why the hell would anyone want to purposely switch to a less efficient IC motor? If you really are dead set on your proprietary fuels then run on-board generators with it. Please, let's not be stupid and use another IC engine for vehicle motive power.
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Locomotives work very well running electrics - so well that even when they don't have wires to draw power they run a generator to power the electric motors. We pretty much went from steam power straight to electric. Why the hell would anyone want to purposely switch to a less efficient IC motor? If you really are dead set on your proprietary fuels then run on-board generators with it. Please, let's not be stupid and use another IC engine for vehicle motive power.
    ??? Locomotives use diesel engines to produce the electricity and, last I heard, diesel engines are considered to be internal combustion engines. What benefits do you see from replacing gasoline engines with diesel engines?
    "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
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