View Poll Results: Is it time to double down on green energy that has never been more promising?

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Thread: Obama Green double down question

  1. #61
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    No Idea what happened to this Idea...(probably bought up by Exxon or something)...but this would be amazing if upscaled.

    "Anything into Oil Technological savvy could turn 600 million tons of turkey guts and other waste into 4 billion barrels of light Texas crude each year By Brad Lemley Photography by Tony Law

    Gory refuse, from a Butterball Turkey plant in Carthage, Missouri, will no longer go to waste. Each day 200 tons of turkey offal will be carted to the first industrial-scale thermal depolymerization plant, recently completed in an adjacent lot, and be transformed into various useful products, including 600 barrels of light oil.

    In an industrial park in Philadelphia sits a new machine that can change almost anything into oil. Really. "This is a solution to three of the biggest problems facing mankind," says Brian Appel, chairman and CEO of Changing World Technologies, the company that built this pilot plant and has just completed its first industrial-size installation in Missouri. "This process can deal with the world's waste. It can supplement our dwindling supplies of oil. And it can slow down global warming." Pardon me, says a reporter, shivering in the frigid dawn, but that sounds too good to be true. "Everybody says that," says Appel. He is a tall, affable entrepreneur who has assembled a team of scientists, former government leaders, and deep-pocketed investors to develop and sell what he calls the thermal depolymerization process, or TDP. The process is designed to handle almost any waste product imaginable, including turkey offal, tires, plastic bottles, harbor-dredged muck, old computers, municipal garbage, cornstalks, paper-pulp effluent, infectious medical waste, oil-refinery residues, even biological weapons such as anthrax spores. According to Appel, waste goes in one end and comes out the other as three products, all valuable and environmentally benign: high-quality oil, clean-burning gas, and purified minerals that can be used as fuels, fertilizers, or specialty chemicals for manufacturing. Unlike other solid-to-liquid-fuel processes such as cornstarch into ethanol, this one will accept almost any carbon-based feedstock. If a 175-pound man fell into one end, he would come out the other end as 38 pounds of oil, 7 pounds of gas, and 7 pounds of minerals, as well as 123 pounds of sterilized water. While no one plans to put people into a thermal depolymerization machine, an intimate human creation could become a prime feedstock. "There is no reason why we can't turn sewage, including human excrement, into a glorious oil," says engineer Terry Adams, a project consultant. So the city of Philadelphia is in discussion with Changing World Technologies to begin doing exactly that. "The potential is unbelievable," says Michael Roberts, a senior chemical engineer for the Gas Technology Institute, an energy research group. "You're not only cleaning up waste; you're talking about distributed generation of oil all over the world." "This is not an incremental change. This is a big, new step," agrees Alf Andreassen, a venture capitalist with the Paladin Capital Group and a former Bell Laboratories director. The offal-derived oil, is chemically almost identical to a number two fuel oil used to heat homes. "


    Anything into Oil (Change trash & sewage to oil for $15@barrel)

  2. #62
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    Thanks. Yup, funny w/ a message; and, sticks are sustainable. All they had to do was control their population or move on to oil and coal. And oil and coal are sustainable too, but I'm not sure what the creation rate is today. Actually I expect us to move on again. Its just the grace with which it will be done that is in question. Sorry, I'm a retired design engineer married to a retired design engineer and every development project we were ever involved in took way longer than expected, e.g. 777. ( No religion involved, just experience.)
    We agree on quite a bit. When we started running low on whales for whale oil lamps, there was an attempt to move to kerosene. It didn't take long to run short of surface seeps for crude oil, and so the first well was drilled around 1856 in western Pennsylvania. The effort was so successful that in 1866, the newly created Department of the Interior issued its first warning that we would exhaust our known reserves of oil within ten years if we didn't scale back. The visionary John D. Rockefeller, though he may have been a greedy offspring of a canid, did organize the industry so that kerosene lamps became a standard available to almost everyone. Then came Henry Ford who gave us masses the freedom to move where and when we choose.

    Agreed that we will eventually move on to something else, but I would argue that the only role of government is to get out of the way. Natural gas is a promising avenue, but you and I are both old enough to remember Jimmy Carter and the disaster he created by insisting that we were almost out of natural gas. His government sponsored Synfuels Corp that was created to turn lignite into gas left a billion dollars of taxpayer money rusting alongside the Missouri River in North Dakota after Reagan turned off the subsidy spigot. Obama's "green energy" is just a rerun of that disaster.

    Agreed also that no development project ever comes in on time or within budget. In some circles, this is known as Cheops' Law.
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  3. #63
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    There was a delightful cartoon in the Wall Street Journal a few months ago that showed two cavemen looking at a little fire in the cave. One was saying to the other "Of course it's sustainable! Do you think we're going to run out of sticks?!?"
    Actually, sticks are a renewable energy source.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 04-23-12 at 04:56 PM.
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Actually, sticks are a renewable energy source.
    True. And like other green technologies (along with Obama's solution of inflating your tires properly), they are insufficient to power today's economy and can't be scaled up to do so. Where does that leave us?
    "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    True. And like other green technologies (along with Obama's solution of inflating your tires properly), they are insufficient to power today's economy and can't be scaled up to do so. Where does that leave us?

    In the same boat we were in 120 yrs. ago...we need to figure this out just like we did in the late 1800's...we call it progress.

    "Jump to: navigation, search

    The Age of Oil, also known as the Oil Age or the Petroleum Age, refers to the era in human history characterised by an increased use of petroleum in products and as fuel. Though unrefined petroleum has been used for various purposes since ancient times, it was during the 19th century that refinement techniques were developed and gasoline engines were created. The oil age is commonly thought of as beginning, however, in 1901 with the strike at Spindletop, near Beaumont, Texas in the United States which launched large scale oil production and soon made the petroleum products widely available.[1] Other earlier dates which are sometimes used as start dates include 1846 (Abraham Gesner invents kerosene making coal and petroleum practical raw materials for lighting fuel), 1859 (Edwin Drake invents the first modern drilling process for deep oil wells), and 1879 (Karl Benz produces the first practical gasoline-powered automobile).

    Since the 1960s and 1970s, when petroleum production peaked in many industrialized nations, a frequent topic of speculation among scholars has been when worldwide production will peak, as well as when and how the oil age will ultimately end. According to some definitions the age is defined as ending at the point where consumption outstrips the decreasing production making its use unprofitable or impossible. With the dawning of the so-called Atomic Age many observers in the mid 20th century had believed that the Oil Age was rapidly coming to an end.[2] However, the rapid change to atomic power envisioned during this period never materialized. Assuming current consumption rates, current oil reserves will be completely depleted by the year 2050. [3]"


    Remember that concept?

    Age of Oil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  6. #66
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
    No Idea what happened to this Idea...(probably bought up by Exxon or something)...but this would be amazing if upscaled.

    "Anything into Oil Technological savvy could turn 600 million tons of turkey guts and other waste into 4 billion barrels of light Texas crude each year By Brad Lemley Photography by Tony Law

    Gory refuse, from a Butterball Turkey plant in Carthage, Missouri, will no longer go to waste. Each day 200 tons of turkey offal will be carted to the first industrial-scale thermal depolymerization plant, recently completed in an adjacent lot, and be transformed into various useful products, including 600 barrels of light oil.

    In an industrial park in Philadelphia sits a new machine that can change almost anything into oil. Really. "This is a solution to three of the biggest problems facing mankind," says Brian Appel, chairman and CEO of Changing World Technologies, the company that built this pilot plant and has just completed its first industrial-size installation in Missouri. "This process can deal with the world's waste. It can supplement our dwindling supplies of oil. And it can slow down global warming." Pardon me, says a reporter, shivering in the frigid dawn, but that sounds too good to be true. "Everybody says that," says Appel. He is a tall, affable entrepreneur who has assembled a team of scientists, former government leaders, and deep-pocketed investors to develop and sell what he calls the thermal depolymerization process, or TDP. The process is designed to handle almost any waste product imaginable, including turkey offal, tires, plastic bottles, harbor-dredged muck, old computers, municipal garbage, cornstalks, paper-pulp effluent, infectious medical waste, oil-refinery residues, even biological weapons such as anthrax spores. According to Appel, waste goes in one end and comes out the other as three products, all valuable and environmentally benign: high-quality oil, clean-burning gas, and purified minerals that can be used as fuels, fertilizers, or specialty chemicals for manufacturing. Unlike other solid-to-liquid-fuel processes such as cornstarch into ethanol, this one will accept almost any carbon-based feedstock. If a 175-pound man fell into one end, he would come out the other end as 38 pounds of oil, 7 pounds of gas, and 7 pounds of minerals, as well as 123 pounds of sterilized water. While no one plans to put people into a thermal depolymerization machine, an intimate human creation could become a prime feedstock. "There is no reason why we can't turn sewage, including human excrement, into a glorious oil," says engineer Terry Adams, a project consultant. So the city of Philadelphia is in discussion with Changing World Technologies to begin doing exactly that. "The potential is unbelievable," says Michael Roberts, a senior chemical engineer for the Gas Technology Institute, an energy research group. "You're not only cleaning up waste; you're talking about distributed generation of oil all over the world." "This is not an incremental change. This is a big, new step," agrees Alf Andreassen, a venture capitalist with the Paladin Capital Group and a former Bell Laboratories director. The offal-derived oil, is chemically almost identical to a number two fuel oil used to heat homes. "


    Anything into Oil (Change trash & sewage to oil for $15@barrel)

    I find it rather peculiar...that I place before you all, something revolutionary and capable of eliminating the very issues we all debate.


    And it is ignored...strange.

    Might we be focused on preset agendas?

  7. #67
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
    I find it rather peculiar...that I place before you all, something revolutionary and capable of eliminating the very issues we all debate.


    And it is ignored...strange.

    Might we be focused on preset agendas?
    Earlier I saved it for later reading - and research. I'll get to it ...
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  8. #68
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Yes, oil is cheap - we all understand that. Also, as you've pointed out, it's China's demand for oil that is now controlling global prices and our price at the pump.
    that is not accurate - and it is not what I have claimed. China's demand is part of current oil prices. China's demand was not appreciably higher 6 months ago:



    The price of gasoline at the pump swings much more wildly than mere Chinese demand - because it is not a product of simply Chinese Demand. As democrats are constantly pointing out (though misdiagnosing), the futures and commodities market plays a massive role in price variations. Perceived future supply vice demand increases or decreases off an assumed baseline, prices swing higher and lower at a greater variation than that produced by shifts in relative demand. Prices are swinging high right now because investors see that future supply will be artificially constrained, and disproportionately vulnerable to political instability. Change that perception, and they will swing low.

    - We can continue to increase production in a race to keep up with China's growing demand, which we're eventually going to lose because there are 1200M people over there and counting, and/or
    You're going to have to forgive, me. How, exactly, is creating massive numbers of new jobs which traditionally pay above-average-wages in America and taking advantage of our natural abundance in supply of a resource whose value (you say) is only going to increase losing? It sort of seems like the massive boost to GNI / GDP would be a good thing.

    But basically this is the "use oil until it's no longer the cheapest source of energy, at which point we switch to the new cheapest form of energy" plan.

    We can decrease our demand at a pace to balance China's growing demand, which we could eventually win because as our demand keeps dropping we become less dependent on others and eventually we'll have no dependence at all. But the latter never works if we continue wasting the oil we have by moving cars and trucks with it. Over 60% of our oil usage each year, which is more than we import, is going out the tailpipe. If tomorrow we stopped using oil to make gasoline and diesel (not going to happen soon, see below) we wouldn't need any oil imports.
    except that as you point out, magical green unicorn vehicles, even if someone found the magic make-them-work button, is nowhere near our oil consumption.

    There are other "fuels" that can also move vehicles, NG and EV.
    .
    Yup. If oil actually becomes a worse bet than alternatives in the near future, my bet is on NG. after a certain time horizon, however, I'm betting hydrogen. Electric is just another way of saying "Coal".

    Yes, both need investment to be viable on a large-scale basis - what do you think this thread is about?
    It is about the fact that, despite decades of massive taxpayer subsides, neither of these options seem to be viable. You know what the definition of insanity is? It's continuing to do the exact same thing, but expecting different results. We are facing a fiscal crises of a proportion that we have not yet faced in our history. When it comes down to cutting spending on weapons systems we know work, medicare that we know provides healthcare for seniors, or on giveaways to politically connected friends of key politicians because they have invested in the green-unicorn-religion which we have every indication won't work.... well, that's a pretty easy choice.


    We've got as much or more NG as we do oil but if the distribution system isn't built to handle it, it's for naught.
    Bi-Fuel Vehicles. As gasoline approaches the price of NG, expect manufacturers to increasingly offer this option.

    NG pipelines will have to be added or upgraded. Local storage will need to be addressed
    And, if there is ever any significant demand for it, it will be. But we've already seen attempts to "jump start" the EV market by installing infrastructure and hoping for demand to appear fail, and fail expensively.

    EVs will have to be phased in slowly. They're our long-term investment to get us free of foreign oil and the global oil market for good.
    why would we want to be?

    But even if we started switching to EV tomorrow it would still take decades to get everything transferred over.
    why would you want to?


    Do you see what I mean about this stuff being a religion? You take your means as an a priori assumption.

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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
    In the same boat we were in 120 yrs. ago...we need to figure this out just like we did in the late 1800's...we call it progress.
    it's pretty funny you should mention 120 years ago. That was about just before the first time people like you started warning that the end of oil was just around the corner

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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Biodeisel is a better bet than NG. Bioedeisel is renewable and easy tomake. NG like Hydrogen has a storage problem. Neither of them are particlarily safe in a collision. I don't see EV going anywhere anytime soon, The technology isn't there yet. They keep looking for better capacity batteries with longer life with less weight/size. This leads to more and more exotic minerals being used increasing cost and facing the same problems what peolel are whinning about with oil. .bad for the environment, limited supply etc. Untill someone comes up with a real revolution in battery technology instead of small increases in existing technology I don't see it going very far.
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