View Poll Results: Is it time to double down on green energy that has never been more promising?

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    17 50.00%
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    15 44.12%
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Thread: Obama Green double down question

  1. #31
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    the increases in domestic oil production have come exclusively on private grounds, and is largely the result of approvals pushed through the Bush Administration. GOVERNMENT owned grounds - which Obama actually has impact on - are down 11% over the past two years, and the approval process has slowed to a trickle, meaning that even if we threw it all open tomorrow, we wouldn't see increased production for a year or two.
    It doesn't really matter where the oil is from. The fact is domestic production is up three years in a row after dropping eight years in a row and it didn't have any affect on global prices one way or the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Remove Congressional and Presidential restrictions on drilling in the 80% of our waters currently off-limits. Streamline the approval process with hard deadlines for the bureaucrats to meet. Ditto for all other energy production methods - from coal to nuclear. Open up ANWR to drilling. Open up Federal lands for fracking, or sell them for that purpose.

    Most importantly, even though it would not effect the immediate supply of oil, it would heavily impact the futures market. Right now oil is in high demand not least because people see demand increasing faster than supply. Reverse (or seriously mitigate) those expectations, and you can expect to see an oil sell-off, which would cause the price to tumble.
    "Drill, Baby, Drill" while you ignore belittle options for the other half of your statement - "demand increasing faster than supply"? *shakes head*
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 04-21-12 at 08:09 PM.
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  2. #32
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Green, you mean solar and wind that does not save one drop of oil. All that green does is create electricity, and we have natural gas and coal to make electricity for centuries.

    Double down on wind and solar is a wast of money, if the private sector want to do wind and solar, more power to them.

    Thus far there is no green anything that can replace oil. Ethanol helps but not nearly enough.
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Shall I start listing all the NASA and military spin offs or can you Google those yourself?
    Good point. Has it occurred to you that these were incidental spinoffs from the main effort which was directed elsewhere? I don't deny the existence or the utility of the spinoffs - computers from WWII, telemetry from the rocket programs of the forties, velcro from the space program, internet from DARPA - but the obvious conclusion from these examples is that we should shut down the departments of energy, HUD, commerce, etc. and give the money to the military.
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  4. #34
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    It doesn't really matter where the oil is from.
    that is not true for two reasons:

    1. the cost of transportation, which spikes with peak piracy seasons (which we are currently in), and
    2. the increased volatility due to the larger percentage of supply subject to removal by a geopolitically fractured and unstable region.

    The fact is domestic production is up three years in a row after dropping eight years in a row
    yes. It is also a fact that that higher domestic production is despite the current administration rather than because of it.

    it didn't have any affect on global prices one way or the other.
    that is incorrect, it was simply insufficient to maintain oil prices, as it is too little increase, both in raw and as a percentage.

    "Drill, Baby, Drill" while you ignore belittle options for the other half of your statement - "demand increasing faster than supply"? *shakes head*
    if you really want to reduce demand, you are free to advocate the detonation of multiple strategic nuclear devices over China's Eastern Seaboard.

    Here are a few basic key facts:

    Despite year-to-year fluctuations, global demand for oil is going to continue to increase.

    Despite rising demand, oil remains more efficient, more effective, and cheaper than the alternative forms of energy, despite decades of subsidy to that field.

    Recognizing that alternatives are not going to be replacing oil as a fuel (and, by the way, that is hardly the breadth of our economic dependence on oil. Oil is in everything from crops to plastics to the computer screen you are looking at) any time soon, if we wish to reduce the price, then we need to increase the supply of oil.

    Because of the heavy impact of commodities and futures trading in the international oil market, any perceived potential future increases or decreases in the supply of oil will have highly exaggerated effects on the price of oil.




    I don't belittle alternate energies; I like 'em. I think some of them are cool as all get out. If it was cheap enough, I would be putting solar cells on my roof and setting up little watermills by my gutters. One day that technology will be developed enough to be plausible, and I think that will be great.

    What I do belittle is the religion of "green", of "green technology", of "sustainable population growth" of "alternative fuels". The people who seek to support alternative energies for their own sake and seek to do so with others money get my derision for doing so, and deserve it.

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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by Born Free View Post
    Ethanol helps but not nearly enough.
    I completely agree with your post except for this part. 10% ethanol fuel lowers my gas mileage by 10%, and E-85 lowers gas mileage by 25% over regular gasoline. IMO ethanol is another government subsidy that screws the consumer in favor of the special interests that produce the stuff.
    "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    Good point. Has it occurred to you that these were incidental spinoffs from the main effort which was directed elsewhere? I don't deny the existence or the utility of the spinoffs - computers from WWII, telemetry from the rocket programs of the forties, velcro from the space program, internet from DARPA - but the obvious conclusion from these examples is that we should shut down the departments of energy, HUD, commerce, etc. and give the money to the military.
    which is, in fact, experimenting with solar as a replacement for batteries. Because for the military, the cost is less important than the ability to increase combat efficiency. We don't build LHD's because we can make money selling cruises on them.

  7. #37
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    I completely agree with your post except for this part. 10% ethanol fuel lowers my gas mileage by 10%, and E-85 lowers gas mileage by 25% over regular gasoline. IMO ethanol is another government subsidy that screws the consumer in favor of the special interests that produce the stuff.
    and directly increases the price of food, making it harder for the poor to feed their families.

  8. #38
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    I'll enthusiastically decline, the return rate on investments of this nature have been abysmal so far.

    Edit: Not to say that alternative energy shouldn't be a priority, but the "Green energy" sector has proven itself to be woefully impotent and ineffective.
    Last edited by a351; 04-21-12 at 09:24 PM.

  9. #39
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
    Good point. Has it occurred to you that these were incidental spinoffs from the main effort which was directed elsewhere? I don't deny the existence or the utility of the spinoffs - computers from WWII, telemetry from the rocket programs of the forties, velcro from the space program, internet from DARPA - but the obvious conclusion from these examples is that we should shut down the departments of energy, HUD, commerce, etc. and give the money to the military.
    Actually the velcro thing is a myth - NASA didn't invent that one.

    I think some green tech will come from the military - if not the underlying technology then at least plenty of data on cost, use, maintenance, wear, etc., aka field testing. And, yes, none of the spin-offs were "intended", they were gravy from the various programs that were being carried out. It was a steady supply of gravy, nonetheless. But look around, we don't do those big programs anymore so the R&D is dwindling. What's going to take it's place if we don't do what NASA and the military did for decades, namely hand over piles of cash to private companies to solve problems? I think there are more efficient means of doing it than they did in the past but it still needs to be done somehow or the rest of world is going to beat us to it.

    You want to know what pushes me toward green as much as anything? The fact that China is investing in it, and not just to sell it overseas, while at the same time Europe is also pushing it for their own reasons. I've got to ask myself, What do they know that we don't or aren't admitting to ourselves or aren't being told? If it were just one or the other then maybe it's just a quirk. But both?? Hmmm.
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  10. #40
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    Re: Obama Green double down question

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    if you really want to reduce demand, you are free to advocate the detonation of multiple strategic nuclear devices over China's Eastern Seaboard.
    Don't tempt me!
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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