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Following someone.

Is following someone an aggressive act?


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It can be intimidating, but not always. The circumstances do matter.

That's just absurd.....

following someone is in fact, considered assault.

do it with a deadly weapon...and what would YOU call it?

the fact is, following someone can indeed be considered an intimidating & threatening act.

and in many states, simply following someone is considered assault.
 
following someone is in fact, considered assault.

Can you provide some evidence of this?

do it with a deadly weapon...and what would YOU call it?

Are they using the deadly weapon to follow them? Assuming your first statement isn't made up, if the following itself is the assault, then the firearm becomes irrelevant because the assault is occurring without the assistance of a weapon.
 
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Can you provide some evidence of this?

assault legal definition of assault. assault synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

Generally, the essential elements of assault consist of an act intended to cause an apprehension of harmful or offensive contact that causes apprehension of such contact in the victim.

The act required for an assault must be overt. Although words alone are insufficient, they might create an assault when coupled with some action that indicates the ability to carry out the threat. A mere threat to harm is not an assault; however, a threat combined with a raised fist might be sufficient if it causes a reasonable apprehension of harm in the victim.

Intent is an essential element of assault. In tort law, it can be specific intent—if the assailant intends to cause the apprehension of harmful or offensive contact in the victim—or general intent—if he or she intends to do the act that causes such apprehension. In addition, the intent element is satisfied if it is substantially certain, to a reasonable person, that the act will cause the result
 
Intent is an essential element of assault. In tort law, it can be specific intent—if the assailant intends to cause the apprehension of harmful or offensive contact in the victim—or general intent—if he or she intends to do the act that causes such apprehension. In addition, the intent element is satisfied if it is substantially certain, to a reasonable person, that the act will cause the result

That's the important bit: Intent.

Intent matters with legal issues, but it doesn't matter with an act being aggressive or intimidating.

Following someone without intent to harm is not a crime, and it's not assault.

It can be aggressive and intimidating without intent, though.
 
assault legal definition of assault. assault synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

Generally, the essential elements of assault consist of an act intended to cause an apprehension of harmful or offensive contact that causes apprehension of such contact in the victim.

The act required for an assault must be overt. Although words alone are insufficient, they might create an assault when coupled with some action that indicates the ability to carry out the threat. A mere threat to harm is not an assault; however, a threat combined with a raised fist might be sufficient if it causes a reasonable apprehension of harm in the victim.

Intent is an essential element of assault. In tort law, it can be specific intent—if the assailant intends to cause the apprehension of harmful or offensive contact in the victim—or general intent—if he or she intends to do the act that causes such apprehension. In addition, the intent element is satisfied if it is substantially certain, to a reasonable person, that the act will cause the result
Following someone is not an overt act, neither is following someone while possessing a firearm. Overt acts are those which leave little doubt as to the intent, this is usually grabbing, hand gestures and language suggesting imminent violence, putting hands on the body of someone, etc. Following someone does not signify intent to harm.

This applies similarly to assault with a deadly weapon. If my firearm is at my side it is not an immenent threat to you......but if it's pointed at your body, it's a different story. This is pretty much the same standard for any held or bared weapon. Further, if I grab a bottle and throw it at you the AWDW charge would apply.

Following someone contains none of the above elements.
 
Following someone is not an overt act, neither is following someone while possessing a firearm....

following someone in a car and on foot, can very much intimidate a rational & intelligent person.

and if that person spots a gun, that person can reasonably fear for his life.
 
following someone in a car and on foot, can very much intimidate a rational & intelligent person.

and if that person spots a gun, that person can reasonably fear for his life.

Absolutely. But that doesn't make it assault with a deadly weapon.
 
following someone in a car and on foot, can very much intimidate a rational & intelligent person.
Uh, no. Following someone in a car is following someone in a car, following someone on foot is following someone on foot. Whether the following intimidates the person or not is not grounds for an assault charge. Now, if the driving of the car is done so in a way that would signify that the person on foot is in danger that is different, which can be either assault with a deadly weapon or attempted vehicular homicide dependent upon how the aggression is handled. Following someone on foot may "intimidate" them but there is no clear intent of harm in either scenario of any engagement of violence. However actions that come from the following which are more clear in intent are where assault occurs legally.

and if that person spots a gun, that person can reasonably fear for his life.
Nope. This is completely false, I have seen plenty of "bulges" from the side and back signifying a carrier, and I have seen enough people "side holstered" who have been absolutely no threat to me whatsoever. It is completely irrational to be afraid of a holstered gun, and it isn't assault with a deadly weapon. The time that assault with a deadly weapon is when you reasonably have fear of bodily harm, this could be a weapon pointed at you, or a stance with a weaponized object like a frying pan, baseball bat, car, etc. and this boils down to what signals you are picking up like an attack stance, hands upon your person, violent language declaring intent, or as simple as the person taking a swing at you. Assault is a condition where you have little doubt that person is willing to cause you harm. Battery is when they actually engage in committing that harm, aggravated being an increased harm usually causing bodily damage and hospitalization and second degree usually aggravated plus a weapon.
 
Uh, no. Following someone in a car is following someone in a car, following someone on foot is following someone on foot. Whether the following intimidates the person or not is not grounds for an assault charge.....

but it is grounds for a SYG defense.
 
but it is grounds for a SYG defense.
No. Stand your ground defense states that you were not running away from an illegal action where you have the right to engage. IOW the defense is dependent upon you having the legal right to engage in current activity, the attack on your person was an illegal act, and thus you weren't compelled to flee.

EDIT - Following is not illegal. Now, if you are asked to back off that is potentially a different story.
 
No. Stand your ground defense states that you were not running away from an illegal action where you have the right to engage. IOW the defense is dependent upon you having the legal right to engage in current activity, the attack on your person was an illegal act, and thus you weren't compelled to flee.

EDIT - Following is not illegal. Now, if you are asked to back off that is potentially a different story.


Actually, a SYG defense doesn't require the other person to be doing something illegal. The person using the defense just has to be able to show that a reasonable person would expect themselves to become the victim of an illegal act in the same situation.
 
Actually, a SYG defense doesn't require the other person to be doing something illegal. The person using the defense just has to be able to show that a reasonable person would expect themselves to become the victim of an illegal act in the same situation.
Hmm. Okay, I thought there actually had to be some form of illegal activity such as assault, or battery, etc. and I have come to the understanding that SYG is only admissable if the claimant was not engaged in illegal activity already. I am not conviced that following someone meets that standard under most circumstances, though there are times anyone would be creeped out.

EDIT - I know where I got the legal standard confused now. SYG applies absolutely to your home under the presumption of "threat of bodily harm" and your vehicle as an extension. Legal activity isn't covered rather it's applied to where you have a legal right to be, but one must prove that the force was necessary to protect themselves or others from harm and that the action was necessary to accompish that.
 
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I am not conviced that following someone meets that standard under most circumstances, though there are times anyone would be creeped out.

I agree. I think the fact that Z's own 911 account has M fleeing can potentially create such circumstances, though.

If, as a result of being creeped out by someone following you, you actually attempt to flee from them, only to discover that the person continues to pursue/follow you, it's not exactly unreasonable to think that you are about to become the victim of a crime.

Ultimately, it comes down to whether or not Z continued to try and follow M after he fled. To me, that's a much more important factor in the equation since it would be enough to warrant M having the right to stand his ground.
 
I agree. I think the fact that Z's own 911 account has M fleeing can potentially create such circumstances, though.

If, as a result of being creeped out by someone following you, you actually attempt to flee from them, only to discover that the person continues to pursue/follow you, it's not exactly unreasonable to think that you are about to become the victim of a crime.

Ultimately, it comes down to whether or not Z continued to try and follow M after he fled. To me, that's a much more important factor in the equation since it would be enough to warrant M having the right to stand his ground.
This is why people should communicate before they act. Either way both of these people contributed to what happened and it's up to a court to decide who's more at fault, this could have been avoided by Zimmerman simply saying "listen, we've had some trouble in the neighborhood and I'm just keeping watch" then Martin could have easily said "I'm just coming back from the store, I'm not a threat". God knows who actually escalated the violence but it could have been avoided. It's possible Martin thought Zimmerman was out to hurt him and it's possible Zimmerman thought "a runner is guilty" at the same time and that will always be a tragic communication fail.
As to who is more wrong.......couldn't tell you.
 
This is why people should communicate before they act. Either way both of these people contributed to what happened and it's up to a court to decide who's more at fault, this could have been avoided by Zimmerman simply saying "listen, we've had some trouble in the neighborhood and I'm just keeping watch" then Martin could have easily said "I'm just coming back from the store, I'm not a threat". God knows who actually escalated the violence but it could have been avoided. It's possible Martin thought Zimmerman was out to hurt him and it's possible Zimmerman thought "a runner is guilty" at the same time and that will always be a tragic communication fail.
As to who is more wrong.......couldn't tell you.

Zimmerman had all the information.

He was profiling.. He knew the police were on the way. He was armed. He knew the protocols for NW. He got out of his SUV and followed on foot.

All Trayvon could have known was that a stranger was following him in a "high crime" area.
 
This is why people should communicate before they act.

That kind of nullifies the point of having a SYG law, though. If someone comes at you in what a reasonable person would assume is a threatening manner, you aren't expected to ask them if they are only trying to give you a hug first before you act. They might actually be trying to give you a hug, but it's not reasonable to place the burden of communication on the potential huggee.

The onus of communication falls entirely on Z, regardless of what else transpired. He was the person who was engaging in behaviors which were found to be intimidating/threatening towards another person. At worst, M's behaviors can only be considered intimidating or threatening to property prior to the actual altercation starting.
 
All Trayvon could have known was that a stranger was following him in a "high crime" area.

Martin fled from Z, which indicates that he felt threatened by Z. Z made teh assumption that M felt threatened because he was "up to no good', but since Martin was not actually doing anything wrong, we know that assumption is false.
 
Martin fled from Z, which indicates that he felt threatened by Z. Z made teh assumption that M felt threatened because he was "up to no good', but since Martin was not actually doing anything wrong, we know that assumption is false.

many Zimmerman supporters would respond with: "can you prove he was wasn't up to no good?"
 
That kind of nullifies the point of having a SYG law, though. If someone comes at you in what a reasonable person would assume is a threatening manner, you aren't expected to ask them if they are only trying to give you a hug first before you act. They might actually be trying to give you a hug, but it's not reasonable to place the burden of communication on the potential huggee.

The onus of communication falls entirely on Z, regardless of what else transpired. He was the person who was engaging in behaviors which were found to be intimidating/threatening towards another person. At worst, M's behaviors can only be considered intimidating or threatening to property prior to the actual altercation starting.
To your first point. I am a firm believer in knowing as much as possible, and keeping a constant threat awareness. Being followed is at best a "minor" threat but I do concede that once a person is aware they are being followed they should probably be on some sort of alert and ready to react if necessary. In the case of someone preparing for an assault......well, you're going to know pretty quickly what's going to happen in that situation. Again it's about assessing the situation first and foremost, and if you feel threatened there is nothing wrong with verbalizing it to the persuant.

To your second point.....I absolutely agree. Zimmerman very well should have verbalized that there were bad things prior in the neighborhood and it's very possible Martin would have given the proper explanation that he was simply walking back from the store. My biggest issue is who actually initiated the physical confrontation, if it was Zimmerman he's guilty of negligent homicide or manslaughter, if it was Martin he would have been guilty of assault and Zimmerman dependent on his perception of whether he would be badly injured or killed would determine whether lethal force was justified. However the verbal lag does not excuse the physical altercation.....on that I think we probably agree.
 
Zimmerman had all the information.

He was profiling.. He knew the police were on the way. He was armed. He knew the protocols for NW. He got out of his SUV and followed on foot.

All Trayvon could have known was that a stranger was following him in a "high crime" area.
Well, if you are watching the neighborhood you are profiling. Anyone you don't recognize in a high crime area is a suspect. The police being "on the way" doesn't mean much if they aren't there, on the way could be 5 seconds or 25 minutes.
 
To your first point. I am a firm believer in knowing as much as possible, and keeping a constant threat awareness. Being followed is at best a "minor" threat but I do concede that once a person is aware they are being followed they should probably be on some sort of alert and ready to react if necessary. In the case of someone preparing for an assault......well, you're going to know pretty quickly what's going to happen in that situation. Again it's about assessing the situation first and foremost, and if you feel threatened there is nothing wrong with verbalizing it to the persuant.

To your second point.....I absolutely agree. Zimmerman very well should have verbalized that there were bad things prior in the neighborhood and it's very possible Martin would have given the proper explanation that he was simply walking back from the store. My biggest issue is who actually initiated the physical confrontation, if it was Zimmerman he's guilty of negligent homicide or manslaughter, if it was Martin he would have been guilty of assault and Zimmerman dependent on his perception of whether he would be badly injured or killed would determine whether lethal force was justified. However the verbal lag does not excuse the physical altercation.....on that I think we probably agree.


I agree, which is why what happened after Martin fled is so important. If Z pursued him, M reacting violently is not unreasonable due to simple fight or flight instincts. When flight is taken away as an option, the fearful only have the fight option. Z pursuing Martin would have taken away his ability to engage in a flight response.

But if it was just an exchange of words that turned violent, it comes down to both people making egregious mistakes.
 
that's pretty paranoid.
Not if there have been documented reports of burglary and other crimes which from what I understand is the case. Every stranger is a suspect when your area has been victimized, and sometimes your neighbors are "strangers" then too.
 
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