View Poll Results: Is following someone an aggressive act?

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  • Yes.

    27 61.36%
  • No.

    17 38.64%
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Thread: Following someone.

  1. #161
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    Re: Following someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    and juvenile deliquent punk.
    People don't have a neon sign floating over their heads with their juvenile record on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    An adult following an unarmed minor
    Similarly, people don't have a neon sign floating over their heads with their age recorded on it.

    One question for some of the more legal minded in this thread. I know in some places you can go from being the person being attacked to actually being the aggressor, depending on the situation. Does Florida's "Stand your ground" law essentially negate that notion?

  2. #162
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    Re: Following someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    One question for some of the more legal minded in this thread. I know in some places you can go from being the person being attacked to actually being the aggressor, depending on the situation. Does Florida's "Stand your ground" law essentially negate that notion?
    From what I have read, SYG doesn't negate that possibility. The switch from attackee to aggressor appears to come when the threat to person is already clearly negated, yet the attackee continues to "defend" themselves.

    For example, if I get punched in the face by someone and I defend myself by punching them back and my punch knocks said person unconscious, I would become the aggressor if I continued to pummel their unconscious body or pulled out a gun and shot them. Once they are no longer conscious, the threat to my person is gone.
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 04-17-12 at 01:10 PM.
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    Re: Following someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    People don't have a neon sign floating over their heads with their juvenile record on it.



    Similarly, people don't have a neon sign floating over their heads with their age recorded on it.

    One question for some of the more legal minded in this thread. I know in some places you can go from being the person being attacked to actually being the aggressor, depending on the situation. Does Florida's "Stand your ground" law essentially negate that notion?

    Zimmerman told the 911 dispatcher that Trayvlon was a TEEN

    As for SYG.. Evidently police chiefs hate it.

    'A recipe for disaster'

    To understand why these laws are insane, I'll yield the floor to John Timoney, the former Philadelphia police commissioner and former Miami police chief, who addressed it last week in a New York Times guest column.

    Cops and prosecutors hate Stand Your Ground; that fact alone should give pause to anyone who might be tempted to jerk his knee for the NRA.

    Here's Timoney: "Trying to control shootings by members of a well-trained and disciplined police department is a daunting enough task.

    Laws like 'stand your ground' give citizens unfettered power and discretion with no accountability. It is a recipe for disaster."

    Timoney, as Miami chief, lobbied against the Florida law prior to passage. As he wrote last week, "I pointed out at the time that even a police officer is held to account for every single bullet he or she discharges.

    So why should a private citizen be given more rights when it came to using deadly physical force?...The only thing that is worse than a bad law is an unnecessary law."

  4. #164
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    Re: Following someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    From what I have read, SYG doesn't negate that possibility. The switch from attackee to aggressor appears to come when the threat to person is already clearly negated, yet the attackee continues to "defend" themselves.

    For example, if I get punched in the face by someone and I defend myself by punching them back and my punch knocks said person unconscious, I would become the aggressor if I continued to pummel their unconscious body or pulled out a gun and shot them. Once they are no longer conscious, the threat to my person is gone.
    That's pretty much the way it works in Louisiana, I may end aggression but go no further than any reasonable person would to defend their person or the person of a third party. If I have incapacitated an attacker, i.e. broken limbs, unconsciousness, stunned beyond ability to defend, or if the attacker tries to run away then I am the aggressor if I continue further and it would be possible for both parties at that time to face charges. As well, the rule of thumb here is that the minute an ambulance ride is necessary the charges are upgraded.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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    Re: Following someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by sharon View Post
    Zimmerman told the 911 dispatcher that Trayvlon was a TEEN
    He also apparently thought the guy looked criminally suspicious as well, he also indicated he was unsure of the whole "unarmed" part. My point is that while a person can make assumptions and guesses about an individuals age, criminal record, armerment, etc...they're just that, assumptions and guesses, unless they have a means of absolutely knowing it. So attempting to use absolute knowledge as a means of clearing him, in the case of joko, or condemning him, in the case of Dion, is a bit off base

  6. #166
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    Re: Following someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    He also apparently thought the guy looked criminally suspicious as well, he also indicated he was unsure of the whole "unarmed" part. My point is that while a person can make assumptions and guesses about an individuals age, criminal record, armerment, etc...they're just that, assumptions and guesses, unless they have a means of absolutely knowing it. So attempting to use absolute knowledge as a means of clearing him, in the case of joko, or condemning him, in the case of Dion, is a bit off base
    These days it's prudent to assume a person is armed until they prove otherwise, I have seen people arrested for threatening to use a weapon in a bar, or using a weapon in a bar fight too many times to ever assume a bare knuckle fight is a given. As well, not condemning the "hoody" look but loose, baggy clothing is used by many people who legally and illegally conceal weapons so it isn't that much of a stretch to be concerned about an unknown person in an area late possibly carrying.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Following someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    He also apparently thought the guy looked criminally suspicious as well, he also indicated he was unsure of the whole "unarmed" part. My point is that while a person can make assumptions and guesses about an individuals age, criminal record, armerment, etc...they're just that, assumptions and guesses, unless they have a means of absolutely knowing it. So attempting to use absolute knowledge as a means of clearing him, in the case of joko, or condemning him, in the case of Dion, is a bit off base
    The fight on the ground only last 20-40 seconds before the gunshot was heard. Either GZ already had his gun out of the holster or he was trying to get it out of his holster.

    From the time GZ called 911 (7:09 PM) to the first officer on the scene (7:17 PM)

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    Re: Following someone.

    Since this is obviously about what it is about - YES - following someone can indeed be an agressive act. It has been known to get people killed.
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    Re: Following someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by sharon View Post
    The fight on the ground only last 20-40 seconds before the gunshot was heard. Either GZ already had his gun out of the holster or he was trying to get it out of his holster.

    From the time GZ called 911 (7:09 PM) to the first officer on the scene (7:17 PM)
    It doesn't take long to unholster a gun, even under duress if you are somewhat capable. It also doesn't take long to get injured in a ground fight, I've seen people end up in the hospital in less than 5 seconds.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  10. #170
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    Re: Following someone.

    And I'm still not sure how whether or not GZ had his gun out has any relevance to the notion that he did not know for sure that MARTIN was an "unarmed minor"

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