View Poll Results: Is following someone an aggressive act?

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  • Yes.

    27 61.36%
  • No.

    17 38.64%
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Thread: Following someone.

  1. #101
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    Re: Following someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    If a kid had thrown a rock at my car, I might try to follow him home. If I saw someone hit-and-run, I might follow him until I could "see" the driver and get the license number of the car. If someone accosted the kids who wait in my drive-way for the school bus? I might follow him (on foot or by car) until the police arrived. I can think of dozens of reasons that don't involve raving nutters.
    All the obvious is just out the window on the Zimmerman-Martin matter.

    Diametric opposites too. To be against Zimmerman - they claim no right to self defense even if under violent attack. But to be for Martin, they argue you can attack and beat someone to death just for watching where you are going.

    They claim Zimmerman started a violent fight by merely trying to see where Martin was headed, but totally discount the first approach was Martin turning to come putting his hand in his pocket as stated in the 911 call at Zimmerman until he saw Zimmerman on the phone.

    Yeah, it can be scary if someone is watching you. Welcome to urban life. And if you're poking around the backs of people's homes in the rain hiding your face... hopefully someone is watching you.

  2. #102
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    Re: Following someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    All the obvious is just out the window on the Zimmerman-Martin matter.

    Diametric opposites too. To be against Zimmerman - they claim no right to self defense even if under violent attack. But to be for Martin, they argue you can attack and beat someone to death just for watching where you are going.

    They claim Zimmerman started a violent fight by merely trying to see where Martin was headed, but totally discount the first approach was Martin turning to come putting his hand in his pocket as stated in the 911 call at Zimmerman until he saw Zimmerman on the phone.

    Yeah, it can be scary if someone is watching you. Welcome to urban life. And if you're poking around the backs of people's homes in the rain hiding your face... hopefully someone is watching you.
    Beating to death???

    Wait for the EMT report on George Zimmerman's "injuries" that were treated in the back of a police car without even a bandaid.

  3. #103
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    Re: Following someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Yes, that is what the Trayvon Martin case should establish as law. If anyone is following you - or even just trying to watch here you are going - you have an absolute right to go beat that person to death. I think even if just someone looks at you in an intimidating way you should be able to beat that person to death. I mean no one should have to take any intimidation.

    Afterall, the crap about there is no such thing as verbal provocation justifying violence or reasonableness really needs to go. Tough guys like me really should rule the world anyway. In fact, STG really should be changed to AWI - Attack When Intimidated. The Trayvon Martin way.

    In the absence of other evidence I have to assume, based on available info, that Martin attacked Zimmerman and inflicted substantial injuries to him.


    If I detected a person following me in the parking lot, tried to avoid them and they ran after me, then chose to react by rushing them and beating them up....

    ... then found out too late it was a clerk who was trying to give me my wallet back after I'd left it on the counter....

    ... I would almost certainly be charged with assault and battery, and probably convicted.

    If Martin initiated the attack on Zimmerman with no greater reason than "he was following me", IMO that puts Martin in the wrong, for the same reason I'd be in the wrong in the scenario above.

    We lack any evidence to the contrary, and IMO can't convict Zimmerman based on what we DON'T know.

    My 0.02.

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  4. #104
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    Re: Following someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Yes, that is what the Trayvon Martin case should establish as law. If anyone is following you - or even just trying to watch here you are going - you have an absolute right to go beat that person to death. I think even if just someone looks at you in an intimidating way you should be able to beat that person to death. I mean no one should have to take any intimidation.
    You may think you are being sarcastic, but it really hits home.
    There are cases of people on this forum claiming they are threatened to the point of using deadly force, if someone is say, in their garage.
    There are periodically cases of people, the foreign kid in Louisiana who was looking for the Halloween party, was knocking on a front door asking for directions/party and the wife got "scared" so the husband shot and killed the kid. Entirely legal there, why not in every context? I think all three are absurd personally.

    Afterall, the crap about there is no such thing as verbal provocation justifying violence or reasonableness really needs to go. Tough guys like me really should rule the world anyway. In fact, STG really should be changed to AWI - Attack When Intimidated. The Trayvon Martin way.
    I don't think the OP mentions legality, Trayvon, or whether it warrants physical violence in retaliation or not. I don't think people on this thread are suggesting being followed means you are justified in physical violence towards the pursuer. Is that your impression?

  5. #105
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    Re: Following someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I've had people follow me for the following reasons:

    To hand me back my wallet I'd forgotten.
    To give me a religious tract.
    To give me a brochure, sales paper, or similar.
    To get me to sign their petition.
    To try to sell me something.
    To ask me for a handout.
    Because they thought I was someone else.
    Because they thought I was cute and wanted to catch up with me and talk to me. (women, mostly... but a couple gay guys too. )
    Misunderstanding like the anecdote I told a page ago.
    and yes... at least a couple of times people were following me with criminal intent.



    When I turn to confront a follower, I keep the potential threat in mind but don't assume they must have ill intent.... you never know.

    The standard is "reasonableness" of action. It is pretty clear I could handle any unarmed man or even someone with a knife, so my response in terms of reasonableness is highly different from a 110 little cute blonde female with some minor degree of physical disability. She has been HIGHLY trained and rehearsed to legal standards (in our opinion as cops) and her own sense of fear (well founded) of what to do if being approached by a stranger she senses any danger about and doesn't know.

    As you put it, there is no way to know if the guy is a beggar, handing out some religious materials, is trying to sell drugs, is asking for directions, wants to chat, wants to rob her or wants to drag her to her vehicle, rape and murder her. She is unbashful about how strangers feel about her. In those situations, if such an approaching person comes within 30 feet, she is to shout "Stay away from me!" as angrily and loudly as possible. Any normal person would certainly stop. If not, at 20 feet she draws and levels a 5 shot alum. ally 38sp - laser dot on his chest - screaming "Stop or I will kill you!" Only a mentally disturbed person wouldn't stop. At 10 feet she is to fire - but not definitely to kill. That depends upon risk factor. If questionable risk, but no weapon present, she is to blow apart his pelvis with her first shot - but a quick 2nd if failing. If a weapon present or movements indicating going for one of if he charges - 3 shots - chest-head-chest.

    She is so skilled I know no cop that can match her speed or accuracy. Amazingly so. But her entire training is within that 30 feet and allowed no other practice or shooting. The training was so repetitious, so intense, and so repeated as to make those instinctive - rather than figure-what-to-do-in-an instant. Since there are over a dozen cops - male and female, County, FWC and State who have all worked with her on this training, added to her "defense" if she ever does shoot is over a dozen cops taking the stand testifying she did exactly what they trained and ordered her to do in such a situation. I know that is not available to most citizens.

    One other reason it is maybe reasonable is she was a victim of a horrific assault, thus is fearful. Her being trained in correct response is superior to her reacting in panic. Prior to this training and in part what lead to it, was when she came within 1/10th of a second of shooting some guy point-blank in the face with a derringer for grabbing her breast from behind in a nightclub. There is no way to ever know, but it likely if someone (cop-friend) had not grabbed his hand over the derringer and hammer from her blindside, she would have blown the back of that guy's head out. Whether it from being startled and pulling the trigger or really it was a 1/1000th of a second close call - given the trigger had been pulled and hammer pinched the cop's hand? Can't be known.

    Is how she was trained to NOW react (30-20-10 rule) to a man approaching her she perceives in dangerous when in public reasonable?
    Last edited by joko104; 04-16-12 at 06:46 PM.

  6. #106
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    Re: Following someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    The standard is "reasonableness" of action. It is pretty clear I could handle any unarmed man or even someone with a knife, so my response in terms of reasonableness is highly different from a 110 little cute blonde female with some minor degree of physical disability. She has been HIGHLY trained and rehearsed to legal standards (in our opinion as cops) and her own sense of fear (well founded) of what to do if being approached by a stranger she senses any danger about and doesn't know.

    As you put it, there is no way to know if the guy is a beggar, handing out some religious materials, is trying to sell drugs, is asking for directions, wants to chat, wants to rob her or wants to drag her to her vehicle, rape and murder her. She is unbashful about how strangers feel about her. In those situations, if such an approaching person comes within 30 feet, she is to shout "Stay away from me!" as angrily and loudly as possible. Any normal person would certainly stop. If not, at 20 feet she draws and levels a 5 shot alum. ally 38sp - laser dot on his chest - screaming "Stop or I will kill you!" Only a mentally disturbed person wouldn't stop. At 10 feet she is to fire - but not definitely to kill. That depends upon risk factor. If a risk, but no weapon present, she is to blow apart his pelvis with her first shot - but a quick 2nd if failing. If a weapon present or movements indicating going for one of if he charges - 3 shots - chest-head-chest.

    She is so skilled I know no cop that can match her speed or accuracy. Amazingly so. But her entire training is within that 30 feet and allowed no other practice or shooting. The training was so repetitious, so intense, and so repeated as to make those instinctive - rather than figure-what-to-do-in-an instant. Since there are over a dozen cops - male and female, County, FWC and State who have all worked with her on this training, added to her "defense" if she ever does shoot is over a dozen cops taking the stand testifying she did exactly what they trained and ordered her to do in such a situation. I know that is not available to most citizens.

    One other reason it is maybe reasonable is she was a victim of a horrific assault, thus is fearful. Her being trained in correct response is superior to her reacting in panic. Prior to this training and in part what lead to it, was when she came within 1/10th of a second of shooting some guy point-blank in the face with a derringer for grabbing her breast from behind in a nightclub. There is no way to ever know, but it likely if someone (cop-friend) had not grabbed his hand over the derringer and hammer from her blindside, she would have blown the back of that guy's head out. Whether it from being startled and pulling the trigger or really it was a 1/1000th of a second close call - given the trigger had been pulled and hammer pinched the cop's hand? Can't be known.

    Is how she was trained to NOW react (30-20-10 rule) to a man approaching her she perceives in dangerous when in public reasonable?


    Pretty reasonable on the whole, yes. My own risk tolerance is a little higher but then again, as you say, there is a big difference between a 110# woman with a minor disability and a burly ex-cop with plenty of experience in violence.

    I convinced my mother to carry pepperspray in her later years (70s). I told her that if any stranger approached her and acted the least bit suspicious, don't just spray him hose his eyes down like watering the yard. A little ninety-pound widow woman in her seventies can get away with zero-tolerance for risk.

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  7. #107
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    Re: Following someone.

    yes ,it is certainly aggressive act.any action against my freedom and safety can be regarded as a kind of aggression.
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  8. #108
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    Re: Following someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    I'm asking you.
    You appear very resistant to adressing this question (the OP) in the abstract, not sure why that is.
    I addressed the OP, so maybe I just don't understand what you are asking?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    That's precisely the point though, we are talking about their perception of their own risk/safety. They cannot know, by virtue of being non-omniscient, if they are REALLY at risk or not. That's a philosophical question, it has nothing to do with how we operate in the real world.

    I think you are sort of agreeing that being followed is suspicious, a "potential risk", and otherwise should put someone "on guard" so to speak. But that it's not a sufficient threat to warrant physical retalation. I think in general, I'd agree to that...is that your view?
    Yes. I think you got it right.
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  9. #109
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    Re: Following someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Is following someone an aggressive act?

    Simple question, simple answer.

    I don't believe that it is. If it was then police would not be able to legally follow people. Investigators (PI's) would not legally be able to do it. Paparazzi would not be able to do it.
    Its not a simple question or a simple answer.

    If you don't know you are being followed then no
    coincidentally following someone, no

    following someone, being made that you are following someone, maybe
    following someone, being made that you are following someone, then trying to give them the slip but some sporadic behavior, running through bushes, running into a building, maybe

    point is I know what you are getting at but every circumstance is different, it could very well be an aggressive act and it could also be innocent as pie.

    I remember when I was little (different times) maybe I was like 10-12, my dad was shopping and I was playing in the toy department.

    Every isle i went into this man followed me, he was sneakily observing me but I noticed so I kept going to different isles to see if he continued to follow. He always did.

    SO I decide to go to electronics to see if he kept his pursuit. He did. SO I immediately went back to toys to give him one more chance, there he was again eye balling me like a Christmas turkey.

    Soooo I left toys AGAIN but this time I took a route through mens clothes where I knew my dad would be

    Walking down the ilses I peeked back he was to close for comforted so I started to run, once I got to my dads ilse he was jogging down it behind me. As soon as I got to my dad I stopped grabbed my dad, pointed to the guy and said "dad that man is following me!!!!! By time I did that the man stopped his jog/pursuit/following me right next to us.

    My Dad 6' 4 big guy stood up, grabbed the guy up because he had some clear explaining to do and NOW hahahahaha

    turns out the poor guy was store security LMAO BUT nobody knew this and I at 10-12 I certainly didnt know. He flat out told my dad he was following me because he thought I looked "suspicious" 10-12 yr old kid by himself with probably no money why am I looking at stuff by myself, he wanted to make sure I wasnt stealing.

    Well that certainly wasnt good enough for my dad, my dad was pissed, dragged him to the magers office and want an explanation. HEHEHEHE

    ill never forget how scared that dip**** looked when he got grabbed up by my dad and he realized he was no longer the one in charge LOL

    so yes following someone CAN be aggressive

    was this guy in my story just doing his job? yep but he was doing it very piss poorly and without any real reason or probably cause and it almost got his head beat in lol luckily he had an ID he could whip out quick.
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  10. #110
    I'm kind of a big deal

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    Re: Following someone.

    also I answered yes in the poll only because there are only two options.

    It most certainly is not a yes/no question.
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