View Poll Results: How should drunks be charged?

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  • First degree murder

    5 10.20%
  • Second degree murder

    8 16.33%
  • manslaughter

    28 57.14%
  • Other

    8 16.33%
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Thread: Drunk Drivers

  1. #131
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    Re: Drunk Drivers

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    Do I have data on what? My argument is that the crime, especially repeated drunk driving resulting in deaths, is premeditated because the person responsible is aware of the consequences of his or her actions BEFORE getting drunk. Therefore, the lame excuse you people are using that drunks don't intend to kill is nonsense. AND YES, you are saying that drunk drivers are not responsible for their actions. You did, afterall, call it an accident. You do know what an accident is, right?

    My references to your lack of concern with regard to punishing child molesters is not "hysterics." But nice dodge.
    It is hysterics. You're trying to draw a corollary between me saying that punishments for DUI should be consistent with the crime to some idea that I have little to no desire to punish child molesters. Now for the rest of this tripe. Me saying that an accident is an accident does not remove fault. The individual is still accountable for their actions and proper punishment may be handed out. So now that we’ve gotten rid of that lie, we can move on. It is rarely the intent of a drunk driver to get into a wreck and hurt another. Though if you can prove that intent in a court of law, you are more than free to do so. Reckless endangerment and voluntary manslaughter already cover this crime. One could say that a person knows their car itself is a dangerous weapon and not paying attention (whether or not one is under the influence) means intent. Anyone who has gotten into a wreck while putting on makeup, changing the radio station, talking on the phone, etc. could then (under your definition) be guilty of first degree, premeditated murder should they have a wreck which takes the life of another. Of course under those circumstances, it too is an accident as there is no actual intent to harm. But you want to insert it into places where it does not exist; so we can see how far down the rabbit hole this lack of logic goes.

    Proper punishment for a crime, not excessive punishment built upon emotional tripe. The abdication of intelligence in this country is quite alarming.
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  2. #132
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    Arcana XV's Avatar
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    Re: Drunk Drivers

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    Do I have data on what? My argument is that the crime, especially repeated drunk driving resulting in deaths, is premeditated because the person responsible is aware of the consequences of his or her actions BEFORE getting drunk. Therefore, the lame excuse you people are using that drunks don't intend to kill is nonsense. AND YES, you are saying that drunk drivers are not responsible for their actions. You did, afterall, call it an accident. You do know what an accident is, right?

    My references to your lack of concern with regard to punishing child molesters is not "hysterics." But nice dodge.
    I think your problem is that you wish to legally redefine "premeditation" and "intent". Good luck with that.
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  3. #133
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    Re: Drunk Drivers

    Well, Hell... I drive drunk almost every day and see nothing wrong with it at all.
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  4. #134
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    Re: Drunk Drivers

    how drunk we talking?

  5. #135
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    Re: Drunk Drivers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It is hysterics. You're trying to draw a corollary between me saying that punishments for DUI should be consistent with the crime to some idea that I have little to no desire to punish child molesters.
    Reading comprehension is lacking in many of your posts. Here’s what I am saying: Your lax view of drunk driving is in line with your lax view of child molestation. Both positions are utterly absurd. I am not drawing any type of connection between the two crimes. At all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Now for the rest of this tripe. Me saying that an accident is an accident does not remove fault.
    You are saying that these people are unintentionally harming others. If it’s unintentional, there is no fault involved. Fault assumes culpability which you have clearly denied in these cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The individual is still accountable for their actions and proper punishment may be handed out. So now that we’ve gotten rid of that lie, we can move on.
    There is no lie as you put it. You have argued in this thread that current laws need to be reversed which is idiotic, window-linking nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It is rarely the intent of a drunk driver to get into a wreck and hurt another.
    While drunk, they are obviously in an altered state of mind, but not before getting drunk. This is where intention comes into it. After all, how many times does a person need to make the same mistake before it becomes intentional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Though if you can prove that intent in a court of law, you are more than free to do so.
    Lol I doubt it. There are plenty of morons who think exactly like you. Meanwhile, people keep dying.
    Nearly 11,000 people lose their lives each year because of drunk drivers. (according to the CDC) But the current laws need to be reversed according to you. Justice for those whose lives have been destroyed is “emotional tripe” in your opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Reckless endangerment and voluntary manslaughter already cover this crime. One could say that a person knows their car itself is a dangerous weapon and not paying attention (whether or not one is under the influence) means intent. Anyone who has gotten into a wreck while putting on makeup, changing the radio station, talking on the phone, etc. could then (under your definition) be guilty of first degree, premeditated murder should they have a wreck which takes the life of another. Of course under those circumstances, it too is an accident as there is no actual intent to harm. But you want to insert it into places where it does not exist; so we can see how far down the rabbit hole this lack of logic goes.
    Repeated offenses by drunk driving do not compare to any of your hyperbolic examples. I doubt you even bothered to stop and consider what I’ve actually proposed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Proper punishment for a crime, not excessive punishment built upon emotional tripe.
    What proper punishment? You haven’t proposed any so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The abdication of intelligence in this country is quite alarming.
    Yes, your posts are a fine example of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    I think your problem is that you wish to legally redefine "premeditation" and "intent". Good luck with that.
    I think your problem is that you really have no concept of what intent actually entails, nor do you have any real idea of what constitutes justice. It’s easy to pretend that a lighter punishment for drunk drivers will solve the problem when your real issue is how stricter punishments go against your sentiments. Plenty of people in this thread have mentioned that stricter punishments “ruin the lives” of these drunk drivers. This is the real concern for them. The drunks. Victims are apparently not victims—they are just people in the wrong place at the wrong time. Accidents do happen after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Well, Hell... I drive drunk almost every day and see nothing wrong with it at all.
    Interesting sense of humor. Ha! You’re on a role, Bodhi.
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  6. #136
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    Re: Drunk Drivers

    As a person who has never had a driver's license, I observe a lot of drivers, those driving me around and those around me. I have seen plenty of people do horribly stupid stuff while driving that could have easily resulted in crashes or death. I have had a bus driver, who was driving the bus I was on, who was reading the newspaper while driving the bus. A cab driver reading a book. Plenty of times I've seen alert drivers have to swerve out of the way of idiots who didn't pay attention or just didn't care about who was around them. Many people should never be allowed to drive a car just because of their particular personality making them much more likely to not pay attention or do stupid things, completely sober. I don't know how many people almost every day I see who block an intersection for at least a few seconds because "hey, I had a yellow light and the traffic might move ahead of me before the other way gets a green light" (many times, it doesn't). Hawaii has to have the worst bus drivers in the country (it may be a policy issue). They constantly run red lights, putting pedestrians in constant danger of being hit by a bus. (We're talking being able to see the walk signal on the other side of the road and the bus plowing through anyway, no chance they could have legitimately claimed they had a yellow light.)

    Yet, despite all these reckless things, that are just as capable of resulting in death while driving, we disproportionately punish drunk drivers, no matter what their true impairment or ability to drive is. I'm not one to think driving drunk is good. It certainly isn't. But as others have said, it is better to provide methods of prevention rather than just punishment. If my child was doing something over and over again, I'm not going to just wait for him to do it again and punish him more harshly for doing it. I am going to try to find out why he is doing what he is doing and find alternatives for the behavior. And I also believe there is a difference between driving drunk, driving impaired, and driving after drinking.

    We need to revamp the punishment for drunk driving, including an honest assessment of a person's ability to drive, even if they are over the limit, and concentrate on prevention wherever possible. Now, if someone simply refuses to change their ways, despite alternatives being given, then the punishments should become harsher with consecutive violations. They should never though equate to something they are not. You cannot charge a person with murder for just driving drunk. You must have the intent to commit a crime, the action of the crime, and both of those occurring together in order for a crime to legally occur. You can show these things for drunk driving or even for involuntary/vehicular manslaughter, if the person actually kills someone while driving drunk. You most definitely cannot show intent to kill, which would be required for a first-degree murder charge. From what I have read, it seems second-degree would depend on the state, but I don't agree that it should be charged.
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  7. #137
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    Re: Drunk Drivers

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    I think your problem is that you really have no concept of what intent actually entails, nor do you have any real idea of what constitutes justice. It’s easy to pretend that a lighter punishment for drunk drivers will solve the problem when your real issue is how stricter punishments go against your sentiments. Plenty of people in this thread have mentioned that stricter punishments “ruin the lives” of these drunk drivers. This is the real concern for them. The drunks. Victims are apparently not victims—they are just people in the wrong place at the wrong time. Accidents do happen after all.
    I'm not the one going uber-emotional about this issue. All I'm telling you is that some words have a very specific definition in the legal sense which you seem to refuse to accept. You wish to change those definitions. I don't think that's gonna happen is all. Take it up with the lawyers and judges.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

  8. #138
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    Re: Drunk Drivers

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    I'm not the one going uber-emotional about this issue. All I'm telling you is that some words have a very specific definition in the legal sense which you seem to refuse to accept. You wish to change those definitions. I don't think that's gonna happen is all. Take it up with the lawyers and judges.
    How do you suppose I am "going uber emotional"? Is that the only come back you people can come up with? This is basically an argument about intent. It's not a matter of "changing definitions." It's a matter of how people interpret those definitions. Semantics.
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  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    How do you suppose I am "going uber emotional"? Is that the only come back you people can come up with? This is basically an argument about intent. It's not a matter of "changing definitions." It's a matter of how people interpret those definitions. Semantics.
    Again, it's not "people", it's the law. Premeditation and intent have legal definitions. I suggest you look at a legal dictionary or talk to a criminal lawyer about it so they can explain it to you.
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  10. #140
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    Re: Drunk Drivers

    2nd degree. Because it is not generally premeditated (for 1st degree) and manslaughter does not carry enough weight. There are plenty of alternative methods of getting from point A to B even in rural areas (if you have to, sleep it off). Every time someone who is impaired by alcohol gets behind the wheel of a vehicle it becomes a 2000 pound bullet.

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