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Who will you vote for in the 2012 presidential election...

Who will you vote for in the 2012 Presidential Election?


  • Total voters
    113
An education that values critical thinking skills versus bland regurgitation will expand someone's intelligence in my opinion.
 
An education that values critical thinking skills versus bland regurgitation will expand someone's intelligence in my opinion.

Isn't most of what is 'taught', nothing more than bland regurgitation? Be it how to perform surgery for a slipped disk, how to caculate something, or case law?
 
An education that values critical thinking skills versus bland regurgitation will expand someone's intelligence in my opinion.

So long as one is willing to accept it. But yes, critical thinking and problem solving skills are a high asset of education. The more educated an individual is, the more likely they are to be trained and able to use such skill sets.
 
Isn't most of what is 'taught', nothing more than bland regurgitation? Be it how to perform surgery for a slipped disk, how to caculate something, or case law?

There's always an element of theoretics and book learning, but the truly valuable educations involve putting the students in complex, dynamic environments, where they can learn to problem solve, think critically, and apply everything they've learned.
 
An education that values critical thinking skills versus bland regurgitation will expand someone's intelligence in my opinion.

That type of education can be received in many settings, not just the formal education setting. In fact, for some people the formal education setting can detrimental to developing critical thinking skills.
 
There's always an element of theoretics and book learning, but the truly valuable educations involve putting the students in complex, dynamic environments, where they can learn to problem solve, think critically, and apply everything they've learned.

Many work environments put people in complex, dynamic situations where they learn to problem solve, think critically, and apply things that they've learned. Often, a truly valuable education of that sort is not found at a school.
 
Many work environments put people in complex, dynamic situations where they learn to problem solve, think critically, and apply things that they've learned. Often, a truly valuable education of that sort is not found at a school.

School is generalized training that cant address all the nuances of a work environment...a newly graduated and accredited medical dr knows alot more 5 yrs after he starts his own practice..."ON THE JOB TRAINING" no class's can prepare you totally...they just fluff you up for it..
 
Many work environments put people in complex, dynamic situations where they learn to problem solve, think critically, and apply things that they've learned. Often, a truly valuable education of that sort is not found at a school.

It depends on what you are going to school for and how serious you are about learning.
 
Many work environments put people in complex, dynamic situations where they learn to problem solve, think critically, and apply things that they've learned. Often, a truly valuable education of that sort is not found at a school.
I hate to always bring up Germany as the example for things, but this is something that they do very well. They have programs called "dualstudium" or "dual study", where you are accepted to a company and a college at the same time. For three years you alternate 6 months between studying at the college, and 6 months interning at the company as the job that you will be doing with your degree. As an example, for an engineer, after you finish the three years, you will have a bachelors degree and 18 months of on the job experience working in the actual job.

You just spend the past 36 months applying what you learned, so you're ready to hit the ground running.
 
Many work environments put people in complex, dynamic situations where they learn to problem solve, think critically, and apply things that they've learned. Often, a truly valuable education of that sort is not found at a school.

Indeed.

I am waiting for a list of college classes that put people into complex, dynamic situations where they learn to problem solve... I think the list that will never show up, would be short.
 
It depends on what you are going to school for and how serious you are about learning.

True on both counts, the field of study can make a huge difference, as can the job environment. But the seriousness about learning is not limited to a school environment. I'll take a person who is serious about learning, but never went to school a day in his life over a person who isn't serious about learning and has gone to school.

Learning is not limited to school environments in any way.
 
I hate to always bring up Germany as the example for things, but this is something that they do very well. They have programs called "dualstudium" or "dual study", where you are accepted to a company and a college at the same time. For three years you alternate 6 months between studying at the college, and 6 months interning at the company as the job that you will be doing with your degree. As an example, for an engineer, after you finish the three years, you will have a bachelors degree and 18 months of on the job experience working in the actual job.

You just spend the past 36 months applying what you learned, so you're ready to hit the ground running.


That sounds like a fantastic and comprehensive education program to me.
 
I will hold my nose and vote for Obama. While hopefully waiting for a real liberal to run.
We would all have to hold our noses if a real liberal ran. Then we could have a good laugh and breath freely when he got trounced.
 
True on both counts, the field of study can make a huge difference, as can the job environment. But the seriousness about learning is not limited to a school environment. I'll take a person who is serious about learning, but never went to school a day in his life over a person who isn't serious about learning and has gone to school.

Learning is not limited to school environments in any way.

Certainly isn't, nor do I make that case. I learned a lot about motorcycle repair and maintenance from taking my motorcycles apart in my garage. I don't discount that a lot of practical learning to specific environments can be learned outside the classroom. The classroom is usually a bit more general.

For my experience, physics provides broad range and dynamic subject matters which require learning a HUGE set of skills and problem solving in order to tackle. Hell, I was rebuilding particle accelerators in my sophomore year of undergrad when all the business and philosophy majors were out getting drunk.
 
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That sounds like a fantastic and comprehensive education program to me.

Somewhat, there's actually a few problems with their system as well. We've had to play host to German grad students from time to time and the system ain't all it's cracked up to be.
 
Indeed.

I am waiting for a list of college classes that put people into complex, dynamic situations where they learn to problem solve... I think the list that will never show up, would be short.

Hypothetically, almost any college class can be approached that way. It depends on the teacher. There were a few courses I've taken that were better at it than others (the logic course I took, for example), and there were a few where using problem solving skills instead of the formulaic methods that you were taught was greatly discouraged (certain math courses I've taken allowed for absolutely no deviation from the expected formulas, for example, and would punish someone for taking an inventive and accurate approach to certain problems.)

The majority of my courses neither promoted nor discouraged such learning
 
The majority of my courses neither promoted nor discouraged such learning

That's too bad. Should have went into the hard sciences, that's all we do.
 
For my experience, physics provides broad range and dynamic subject matters which require learning a HUGE set of skills and problem solving in order to tackle. Hell, I was rebuilding particle accelerators in my sophomore year of undergrad when all the business and philosophy majors were out getting drunk.

As you know, I was a physics major when I first went back to college, and in general I do place that major well ahead of most other majors as far as difficulty goes. I would agree that physics does encourage problem solving more than many other fields of study, but it also depends on the school and professors.

I'd be willing to bet you had at least a few classmates that would be classified as "hard workers" rather than "great thinkers", though. I know I had a few classmates like that when I was still studying physics. ****, i might have had a couple of professors like that. :lol:
 
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That's too bad. Should have went into the hard sciences, that's all we do.

I'm actually thinking about my time as a physics major as much as my time as a psychology major. Not physics so much, but a lot of the other science classes I had to take. My chemistry and math courses were the one's that actively discouraged problem solving skills, instead focusing entirely on regurgitation of the common formulas.

Even my psychics courses paled in comparison to running a construction company, though.
 
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The majority of my courses neither promoted nor discouraged such learning

Mine as well. Amazingly, the worst was philosophy, where you should be able to think things through, but the professor wanted people thinking the way he did, and nothing else.

I have no doubt that he, like others here, believes what he did was indeed critical thought and problem solving.
 
Mine as well. Amazingly, the worst was philosophy, where you should be able to think things through, but the professor wanted people thinking the way he did, and nothing else.

I have no doubt that he, like others here, believes what he did was indeed critical thought and problem solving.

I had almost the exact opposite experience with my philosophy courses. As I said, it really does depend on the professor. Hell, my Ethics professor would get pissed off if people tried to just agree with him. And he loved it when you approached things form a unique perspective. Gave extra credit when people presented unique perspectives on issues.
 
I'm actually thinking about my time as a physics major as much as my time as a psychology major. Not physics so much, but a lot of the other science classes I had to take. My chemistry and math courses were the one's that actively discouraged problem solving skills, instead focusing entirely on regurgitation of the common formulas.

Even my psychics courses paled in comparison to running a construction company, though.

I don't know. There are certainly some base courses where they are teaching a methodology; but I think a lot of this is up to drive as well. In undergrad I majored in Chemistry and Physics with minors in Math, Botany, and Political Science. I really only felt that in gen ed classes was there not a lot of effort placed in critical thinking and problem solving. In physics, the ideal is critical thinking and problem solving. It's not about x=xo+vot+1/2at^2. That formula can be derived so long as you understand the system you're analyzing. In fact it was always easy to find the kids who only wanted to plug and chug because they would often use the wrong equations and refused to actually understand the physics instead. In physics it's concepts and thinking, all formulas fall out easily if you know it.

In undergrad I worked on particle accelerators, super conductors, ultra high vacuum systems, I made my own experiment for the p-chem course, etc. Now I have a PhD, what did I learn? I know a **** ton about physics, I'm published in peer-reviewed journals, I've given countless talks and poster presentations, I understand how optics work, I can make complex electrical circuits and design printed circuit boards, I can build ANYTHING with a lathe and a mill, I can program in several langauages. I built a lab from ground up to do my PhD research including lasers, electronics, mechanics, etc.

So is there no "real world" application in that? Hell no. In fact, one of the reasons why I can strip a motorcycle down to the frame and build it again was that I had the problem solving capabilities to sit down by myself and learn how to do it. I didn't need to go to school (you can pay someone to teach you how an engine works if you need I suppose). I fixed our old microwave because I understand electronics.

I think that for some of the more anti-intellectual folk out there they cannot see higher education as yielding anything important and think that all we do can never be applied to the real world. But even base research is applicable and you wouldn't have the tech you have today without it.
 
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For me the math is very easy.

Why would I vote for the same party that produced a President and Vice President, who sat idly by and watched the American economy build-up a head of steam before flying off the edge of a cliff, without so much as offering the nation a parachute - while at the very same time, not having done anything over the subsequent 13 years that demonstrates that it has learned anything whatsoever, about its total mishandling of the United States economy?

Answer: I would not do that.

Millions of jobs were lost in the eight (8) years prior to the current Administration. Trillions were added to the national debt in the eight (8) years prior to the current Administration. According to Treasury Direct, the deficit rose by nearly 100% between fiscal years 2000 and 2008:

09/30/2008 10,024,724,896,912.49
09/30/2007 9,007,653,372,262.48
09/30/2006 8,506,973,899,215.23
09/30/2005 7,932,709,661,723.50
09/30/2004 7,379,052,696,330.32
09/30/2003 6,783,231,062,743.62
09/30/2002 6,228,235,965,597.16
09/30/2001 5,807,463,412,200.06
09/30/2000 5,674,178,209,886.86

Yet, I have yet to hear and/or read anything from any Republican candidate for President, about how to reduce the deficit, arrest the growth in wasteful Congressional spending, balance the budget, re-invent the U.S. economic model, prevent another Great Recession and/or bring back American middle-class incomes.

All I have ever heard from those who helped to create the mess we know find ourselves in today after eight (8) long years of total neglect, is how Barack Obama, from 2009 through 2012, is somehow the causality of all the problems we now face - because he somehow made THEIR problem, worse. If that is not the most hypocritical and useless position to take, then I'll never know what qualifies as such.

If Republicans, can show me precisely what they have learned between the election of George W. Bush and now, as well as precisely what their plan is for rebuilding the nation's economy going forward and exactly how they plan to implement and execute on such plans, THEN I will consider Mitt Romney, as having even the slightest clue about the things he speaks about on the campaign trail. But, until he can articulate a precisely plan of action, combined with the lessons that he learned as a Republican, from the total and abject failure when Republicans LAST controlled both the White House and the Congress, then he cannot expect me to take him seriously as a worthy challenger to the current President (who has outlined such a plan), nor can he seriously expect my vote.

That is what this election boils down to: What have Republicans LEARNED about their abject failure to provide any guidance whatsoever on things domestic in this country, from 2000 through 2008?

Until they can come up with a better lie than "Obama Caused It," or "Obama Made It Worse," then they can consider me off the reservation in terms of ever seeing my vote.

I'm tired of the lies. I'm tired of the deceit. I'm tired of the politics of personal destruction. And, I'm tired of being taken for granted by politicians pandering for my vote and talking to me like I'm a flaming idiot. That goes for BOTH sides of the isle! All of them need to get their collective act together, and help to move this country onto the right track.

Damn hypocrites! I'm sick of it! Literally, sick and tired of it! All the in-fighting, back-biting, whining, moaning and complaining about the "other guy" having done worse - none of that mess is going to solve this nation's problems. Continually fighting against the President, denying any attempts to genuinely solve problems and correct errors, lying through their teeth even about contemporary history, failing to take responsibility for leadership and never once putting forth an alternative plan that is BETTER than the one on the table; is completely unacceptable to me as a member the voting electorate.

We send these people to Washington, to do OUR bidding, not their own. They are there to run the nation's business, NOT to run the nation directly into the ground at full throttle. Where is the referendum on common sense anymore in this country? Or, have we pitched our tent and decided that we'd rather be a nation of Circus Clowns? Sheeple? Sleeple? Economic Slaves? Malfeasant deviants without a cause? Exactly, who do we think we are today?

Just look at the state of our union! Look at where decades of bad choices at the voting booth, have placed us! You CONTINUALLY elect members to Congress, who do nothing but protect their own turf and cater to "K Street" lobbyists, who could give a rats tail about your "freedoms," "liberties," or your "rights" as a U.S. Citizen.

Pull it together America! You are losing the real war - the war for your Representative Democracy, is being lost, day by miserable day.

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Wow. Another fine example of over inflated ego.

Please tell us what math you do, and what you do with it for a career.

I'll give you one guess, my user name and picture giving you two hints.
 
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