View Poll Results: Who will you vote for in the 2012 Presidential Election?

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  • Obama

    107 59.78%
  • Romney

    72 40.22%
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Thread: Who will you vote for in the 2012 presidential election...

  1. #191
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    Re: Who will you vote for in the 2012 presidential election...

    I cant believe its come to this but Im voting for old etch-a-scetch......... Heres to hoping he grows a spine in this election

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    Re: Who will you vote for in the 2012 presidential election...

    Quote Originally Posted by nathanjames1791 View Post
    I cant believe its come to this but Im voting for old etch-a-scetch......... Heres to hoping he grows a spine in this election
    Hehehe! I feel exactly the same way.
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  3. #193
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    Re: Who will you vote for in the 2012 presidential election...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    First, I will give you a similar broadly defined definition of liberal as you gave for conservative.

    Liberal is someone who supports the use of government to enact "fairness" and "good" into the lives of individuals and the public sector and who believed that often increasing the scope and size of government beuracracy is the primary means to do this.

    1. Seeking to increase taxes to pay for expansion of government services is a liberal economic policy
    2. Seeking to have the government place limits upon the amount of pay individuals in the private sector can make is a liberal economic policy
    3. Seeking to have the government to place further restrictions upon the business sector with regards to environmental controls
    4. Seeking to provide funding and benefits to the production, use, or purchasing of "green" energy to reduce our carbon footprint
    5. Creating public works positions and projects to create government jobs for people to use as temporary employement

    This is just off the top of my head real quick. Issue one it was taxing the rich because it's more "fair" since they benefited the most from the Bush Tax Cuts and are hurting the least, and that providing oversight of health care makes sure that insurance companies treat people fairly and that everyone can get coverage and the type of coverage they want which is fair. Two was because it wasn't fair that companies were laying people off while paying CEO's tons of money. Three and Four because it wasn't fair that we account for such a smaller percent of the world population compared to the enormous amount of carbon and other pollution we emit so we need to be coerce and/or force people and companies to be more green to stop global warming. Five, its not fair or good that people are unemployed so we need to create jobs for them that will pay them with money we took through taxes because if they're working it will put more money into the economy.

    Based on the just the end result of the policies he's passed, Obama's been a Moderate Liberal. Still definitively liberal overall, though the various compromises on some issues moved some things from solidly to moderately liberal and some of his methods of action in regards to national defense have been more clearly centrist. But a pure across the board "moderate"? Perposterous. That'd be like suggesting 2004-2008 Bush was a true "moderate" or that even Reagan was moderate (not "moderate compared to modern Republicans" but flat out a "moderate"). Clinton is far more accurate as a moderate in terms of end results, and Obama doesn't approach him at this time.
    First off...I think that your definition of liberal is essentially accurate, although I would disagree that most liberals believe that you have to grow the size of government. I think most liberals would agree that the size of government that we have is fine, I would say that liberals simply understand and/or argue that government is not inherently a bad word. It just has to be used effectively in order to obtain a greater good for the greater population.

    As for your other contentions:

    #1 - Again....I think that this is an accurate description of a liberal philosophy. However, I don't think there is anything that Obama has done or proposed that can be said to follow this principle. Where has Obama sought to increase taxes in order to expand Government?

    #2 - I don't agree that this is a liberal principle at all. I don't see liberals anywhere suggesting that the amount of pay a person can obtain should be limited by the government. And again....I don't see anywhere where Obama has proposed or implemented anything close to this.

    #3 and #4 are pretty much the same thing. And I would agree that environmentalism is probably more of a liberal idea, but not all Republicans are anti-enviroment. I don't see anything inherently "liberal" about encouraging green technology by offering incentives. Hell....even Republicans are ok with handing out subsidies to oil companies in order to encourage drilling...which is a similar enticement, albeit at the other end of the spectrum. I would agree that Obama's cap and trade ideas are in line with liberal thinking. However, there has not really been much proposed in the way of cap and trade...but certainly Obama does hold that particular view.

    #5 Public work programs such as the New Deal and/or the Stimulus plan are not uniquely "liberal". These are programs that are widely supported throughout the political spectrum. So I would disagree with you that this is a "liberal" idea.



    All in all Zyph...I commend you for a well thought out and reasoned answer. I enjoyed reading your take and believe that you made some good points, although I disagree with you on others.

    I think the one thing that we probably can agree on is that Obama is neither completely a moderate nor completely a liberal. You see him as a moderate liberal. I see him as a slightly liberal leaning moderate.
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  4. #194
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    Re: Who will you vote for in the 2012 presidential election...

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    First off...I think that your definition of liberal is essentially accurate, although I would disagree that most liberals believe that you have to grow the size of government.
    Yep, that one is my bad. I wrote it a few time sand on my last flesh out I forgot that it should be and/or between size and scope. Scope is in there because while I consider the "growing" to not necessarily simply mean the size or $ amount, but things like its role, their influence, their control over things, etc, others sometimes don't relaize that. Thus "scope". My bad on forgetting the /or part.

    #1 - Again....I think that this is an accurate description of a liberal philosophy. However, I don't think there is anything that Obama has done or proposed that can be said to follow this principle. Where has Obama sought to increase taxes in order to expand Government?
    Obama suggested the increase of the current tax rates on certain tax brackets by passing a bill that would maintain the current tax brackets for some but increase it for others. This was in part pitched because the funding was needed and assumed to help cover the cost of the government expansions under the health care law, amongst other things. You also have his push for the addition of tax increases to certain segments of the population to pay for the various increased government spending that's occuring as part of the debt cieling debate. Raising taxes as a means of maintaining, increasing, or paying for recently increased, government spending is a liberal economic idea.

    #2 - I don't agree that this is a liberal principle at all. I don't see liberals anywhere suggesting that the amount of pay a person can obtain should be limited by the government. And again....I don't see anywhere where Obama has proposed or implemented anything close to this.
    It's an increase in government regulation (scope) in the interest of fairness. That fits the definition. This was evident in part with companies that took bailout money, with strings attached to that money that the government gets to cap their CEO pay. While you can argue that such a requirement is perfectly reasonable and undrestandable, and perhaps it is, you can't argue that the notion of doing so is liberal regardless of whether or not it came along with public funds.

    #3 and #4 are pretty much the same thing. And I would agree that environmentalism is probably more of a liberal idea, but not all Republicans are anti-enviroment. I don't see anything inherently "liberal" about encouraging green technology by offering incentives. Hell....even Republicans are ok with handing out subsidies to oil companies in order to encourage drilling...which is a similar enticement, albeit at the other end of the spectrum. I would agree that Obama's cap and trade ideas are in line with liberal thinking. However, there has not really been much proposed in the way of cap and trade...but certainly Obama does hold that particular view.
    Similar, not the same though. Secondly, faulty premise. Environmentalism and Government forced "green" policy are not synonymous. Government forced "Green" policy can be Environmentalism, but Environmentalism doesn't have to be.....well you get it. It's the Square and Rectangle thing we learn in elementry school. Conservatives absolutely can be environmentalists. However, using the federal government to force or coerce people into doing it is the important part here, not the environmentalism.

    Also, again, tax incentives themselves are not the liberal notion but rather the purpose behind them and aim of them, and mind you many conservatives even find subsidies to oil companies problematic in that they find them ALL problematic but IF they are here in the budget then you come down to other conservative principles to determine where they go, but that's a whole different topic. It's the notion of using the tax incentives to steer the public in a way that is more "fair" and "good" for society.

    Finally, in terms of cap and trade, please look up American Clean Energy and Security Act.

    #5 Public work programs such as the New Deal and/or the Stimulus plan are not uniquely "liberal". These are programs that are widely supported throughout the political spectrum. So I would disagree with you that this is a "liberal" idea.
    On the Federal Level I think here we're just going to end up disagreeing with that notion. Public works for the sake of public works for the sake of just getting people employed and paid despite it being government money, yeah..I'd consider that one on the liberal side of things.

    I think the one thing that we probably can agree on is that Obama is neither completely a moderate nor completely a liberal. You see him as a moderate liberal. I see him as a slightly liberal leaning moderate.
    I see HIM as a solid liberal who has some strong liberal leanings and, since coming into the Presidency and being made aware of more of the security issues facing the country, is more moderately liberal when it comes to Defense issues.

    I see his PRESIDENCY as moderately liberal due to political pressures and realities given the climate in the country in the early parts of his tenure and the make up of the congress in his later parts.

    As a general reference, my political lingo for scale would be.

    Fringe - Extreme - Strong - Solid - Moderate - Left Leaning Mod - Mod - Right leaning Mod - Moderate - Solid - Strong - Extreme - Fringe

    I think the VAST majority of the American public fall within the Solid to Solid range, with a fair amount (largely in the political establishment and politically knowledgable people) in the "strong" categories on each side. I think Extreme individuals on both sides are a relative minority and I think the true "fringe" is even less, with the true "fringers" pretty much doubling back around as the scale is almost more of a circle then a true line.

  5. #195
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    Re: Who will you vote for in the 2012 presidential election...

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Oh really Navy? Exactly what economic policy of Obama would you define as liberal? This should be good.
    Whatever Rush Limbaugh tells him...lol
    Even if President Obama is a "liberal" at heart, he governs as a "right of center".
    IMO, he is a pragmatist.

  6. #196
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    Re: Who will you vote for in the 2012 presidential election...

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    And most liberals would agree with you on those issues. Which is why it is hilarious that people try to say that Obama is a "liberal". I have yet to have anyone here point to a policy that could be labeled "liberal". They can't....because Obama is a left-leaning moderate (at best).
    He supports government actions to make society 'fair'. That is liberal.

    That he did the other things, which would be considered 'conservative', I put down to actually getting into office and being briefed on what was going on, and finally getting a clue. Realizing that if he did what he wanted, he'd doom any chance of getting re-elected. I like to call that 'an idiots moment of awakening'. When they realize reality doesn't match with their ideology.
    "nah i think the way cons want to turn this into a political issue is funny though" - Philly Boss

  7. #197
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    Re: Who will you vote for in the 2012 presidential election...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    You missed an option: NONE OF THE ABOVE.

    I will not vote for either one of the named choices. I will either:

    1. Vote for a third party candidate whom I approve of
    2. Write in my own name on the ballot (if option 1 is not possible but there are question on the ballot that I wish to vote on)
    3. Simply not vote. (if option 1 is not possible, and there's nothing else on the ballot which I care about)
    Sad, Hussein Obama will send you a thank you card....I am not a Romney fan either but he is better then Hussein.
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  8. #198
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    Re: Who will you vote for in the 2012 presidential election...

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    Whatever Rush Limbaugh tells him...lol
    Even if President Obama is a "liberal" at heart, he governs as a "right of center".
    IMO, he is a pragmatist.

    I wonder who is worse..........Rush on the right or the Revs. Wright, Sharpton, Jackson, and Farrakhan...I would say the latter by a hughe margin...........Your leader that tell Obama what to do are flat out racists.
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

  9. #199
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    Re: Who will you vote for in the 2012 presidential election...

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    So what Obama economic policy would you define as "liberal"?
    Obamcare is the most liberal program in the history of this country.....
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

  10. #200
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    Re: Who will you vote for in the 2012 presidential election...

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    Obamcare is the most liberal program in the history of this country.....
    I would categorize many of LBJ's "Great Society" programs as being more liberal.

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