View Poll Results: Should assets seizure and forfeiture be legal by law enforcement be legal?

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  • Yes with certain restrictions(please specify)

    10 41.67%
  • Yes as the laws currently exist

    0 0%
  • no

    13 54.17%
  • maybe/other

    1 4.17%
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Thread: Should assets seizure and forfeiture be legal by law enforcement be legal?

  1. #11
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    Re: Should assets seizure and forfeiture be legal by law enforcement be legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    When these forfeiture laws first went into effect in the '80's, our police department went into a gleeful spiral of instant abuse, commandeering cars, setting up stings that wouldn't pass the "entrapment test" smell, selling all their loot and pocketing the profits for themselves. I was certain the law would be struck down within months. Yet here we are, decades later, still profiteering from the abuse by stealing from people who have not only not been convicted of a crime, they haven't even been charged with one.

    It's legalized theft, unconstitutional as hell and I can't believe it hasn't been stopped.
    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Tick View Post
    The way the law now is written, the government has a license to steal. We need a complete rewrite of the laws from scratch.
    I disagree with the premise that this is in any way legal. The Fifth Amendment is very, very, very clear.

    No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


    Clearly, asset forfeiture as currently practiced, directly violates the clear letter and intent of the Fifth Amendment. The effect and purpose of asset forfeiture is to deprive people of property, without due process of law, and without fair compensation.
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  2. #12
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    Re: Should assets seizure and forfeiture be legal by law enforcement be legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    When these forfeiture laws first went into effect in the '80's, our police department went into a gleeful spiral of instant abuse, commandeering cars, setting up stings that wouldn't pass the "entrapment test" smell, selling all their loot and pocketing the profits for themselves. I was certain the law would be struck down within months. Yet here we are, decades later, still profiteering from the abuse by stealing from people who have not only not been convicted of a crime, they haven't even been charged with one.

    It's legalized theft, unconstitutional as hell and I can't believe it hasn't been stopped.
    Yep.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    since I think the war on drugs has to end, I guess my perspective is different. However, I have seen dozens of forfeiture cases where the government could not prove "guilt" of the claimant but the forfeiture was justified. But the bounty it provides to government agencies has caused massive abuse
    This, both of you hit on it. I have no problems with assets attained by provably breaking the law being subject to forfeit, and I have no problem with civil forfeiture in a merited case but both of these circumstances should always be done by due process. It stinks to high heaven that a person's property ends up on the market before they've actually received a guilty verdict and that needs to end yesterday. As well the war on drugs is an exercise in futility, I'm waiting for someone to either grow a spine or a brain and suggest smart drug policy, end marijuana prohibition(I don't imbibe) and deal with the "victimless" drugs of the harder variety by setting up a clinical use system that would be monitored by health professionals thus ending the black market.
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  3. #13
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    Re: Should assets seizure and forfeiture be legal by law enforcement be legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    since I think the war on drugs has to end, I guess my perspective is different. However, I have seen dozens of forfeiture cases where the government could not prove "guilt" of the claimant but the forfeiture was justified. But the bounty it provides to government agencies has caused massive abuse
    Pretty much the textbook example of "perverse incentive".

  4. #14
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    Re: Should assets seizure and forfeiture be legal by law enforcement be legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    When these forfeiture laws first went into effect in the '80's, our police department went into a gleeful spiral of instant abuse, commandeering cars, setting up stings that wouldn't pass the "entrapment test" smell, selling all their loot and pocketing the profits for themselves. I was certain the law would be struck down within months. Yet here we are, decades later, still profiteering from the abuse by stealing from people who have not only not been convicted of a crime, they haven't even been charged with one.

    It's legalized theft, unconstitutional as hell and I can't believe it hasn't been stopped.
    It boggles my brain cells that the Supreme Court... in a 9-0 decision... hasn't said, "What the eff were you people thinking when you wrote these laws?!?"

  5. #15
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    Re: Should assets seizure and forfeiture be legal by law enforcement be legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    It boggles my brain cells that the Supreme Court... in a 9-0 decision... hasn't said, "What the eff were you people thinking when you wrote these laws?!?"
    If the SC actually made rulings based solely on the constitution a whole **** load of laws would not exist. Both sides have selected judges based purely on political slant.
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  6. #16
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    Re: Should assets seizure and forfeiture be legal by law enforcement be legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I picked yes but with certain restrictions. A guilty verdict of the accused either in a criminal trial or a civil trial with with the same standards as a criminal trial should have to happen and after that the government should have to prove in a court with the same standards of a criminal trial that all of the property in questions was acquired through illegal means.
    I don't agree with this. If an SUV is pulled over for speeding and 500 pounds of marijuana is found in it, regardless of whether or not there are criminal charges pressed, I think the state should be able to seize the truck and all its contents -- through court order requiring the state to lay out its reasoning.
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    Re: Should assets seizure and forfeiture be legal by law enforcement be legal?

    no forfeiture without a conviction and proof that the assets to be seized were a result of the criminal activity that the individual was convicted of.

  8. #18
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    Re: Should assets seizure and forfeiture be legal by law enforcement be legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I don't agree with this. If an SUV is pulled over for speeding and 500 pounds of marijuana is found in it, regardless of whether or not there are criminal charges pressed, I think the state should be able to seize the truck and all its contents -- through court order requiring the state to lay out its reasoning.
    There is only one way I can interpret this... due process is an inconvenience and an annoyance that must be eliminated.

    Ok, two ways: I don't mean any offense, but honestly, it is incredibly naive to think that humans are capable of restricting themselves to skirting due process only when they *know* a crime has been committed, yet allow for due process in all other cases... and never ever abuse the 'freedom' they would have.

  9. #19
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    Re: Should assets seizure and forfeiture be legal by law enforcement be legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I don't agree with this. If an SUV is pulled over for speeding and 500 pounds of marijuana is found in it, regardless of whether or not there are criminal charges pressed, I think the state should be able to seize the truck and all its contents -- through court order requiring the state to lay out its reasoning.
    Due process exist to protect the citizens not make the government's job easy.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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  10. #20
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    Re: Should assets seizure and forfeiture be legal by law enforcement be legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    There is only one way I can interpret this... due process is an inconvenience and an annoyance that must be eliminated.

    Ok, two ways: I don't mean any offense, but honestly, it is incredibly naive to think that humans are capable of restricting themselves to skirting due process only when they *know* a crime has been committed, yet allow for due process in all other cases... and never ever abuse the 'freedom' they would have.
    How is a court order not due process?
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