Are all black men brainwashed? (Read Warning: post #540)

Slartibartfast · Apr 7, 2012

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

MaggieD said:
I've just GOT to stop with the hyperbole. :rofl

Societal problems are very complex and people tend to like simple solutions. This is part of the reason we are in the mess we are in, I think. Conservatives like solutions that fit their world view and so do liberals. However, both philosophies have a grain of truth to them and the solution, being that it is complex, is going to require we treat this thing like its a buffet and take what we need from whatever plate on the basis that it works in some measurable manner.

ThePlayDrive · Apr 7, 2012

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

megaprogman said:
Yes TPD, I am quite aware of different learning styles, teaching methods, etc. Thats not going to help everyone. Yes, you will get the kids who want to learn but don't have someone to teach them on their level and that is great, but also there is no reason why small school a isn't primarily auditory while subschool b is primarily kinesthetic. There would be enough flexibility to do that.

Perhaps you should read my post again because it appears that you have missed my point. I'll repeat it again.

It is illogical to conclude that certain students "will not drink" if they have not been properly led to the water. This is what you have done. You have concluded that since certain students have not been successful in two systems that have the same ultimate problems, then the students cannot be helped. That's an illogical argument. It does not make sense and it is contrary to evidence.

Slartibartfast · Apr 7, 2012

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

ThePlayDrive said:
Perhaps you should read my post again because it appears that you have missed my point. I'll repeat it again.

It is illogical to conclude that certain students "will not drink" if they have not been properly led to the water. This is what you have done. You have concluded that since certain students have not been successful in two systems that have the same ultimate problems, then the students cannot be helped. That's an illogical argument. It does not make sense and it is contrary to evidence.

Not at all. The basis of my belief lies outside of the educational system itself. So changing the educational system one way or another, will not do anything if the person they are trying to reach doesn't care.

Your solution is for kids that want to learn but have not found a system that works well for them.

These are two different groups of people. However, they can appear the same to the outside observer.

justabubba · Apr 7, 2012

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

ThePlayDrive said:
Perhaps you should read my post again because it appears that you have missed my point. I'll repeat it again.

It is illogical to conclude that certain students "will not drink" if they have not been properly led to the water. This is what you have done. You have concluded that since certain students have not been successful in two systems that have the same ultimate problems, then the students cannot be helped. That's an illogical argument. It does not make sense and it is contrary to evidence.

what can actually be done for the student who does not value education
for the student who will not do the work to achieve an education
what system will educate that student who prefers ignorance, often because it is the easier path

ThePlayDrive · Apr 7, 2012

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

justabubba said:
while i agree with much of your post, the reality is some students WILL be left behind when it comes to achieving an education
some can't get it, others don't want it
no one, other than themselves, can make them do the work to attain it
doesn't matter what system they are in

but that reality does not mean that our educational system is not ripe for a complete overhaul

Sure some students will be left behind. This is true for rich kids and poor kids. There are some people in the best schools from the best families who just do poorly at school. I'm not talking about those people.

I'm talking about all the kids who can be helped with methods that already have academic backing, but that aren't implemented for political and financial reasons or just out of plain ignorance on the part of policymakers. I have a HUGE problem with people concluding that certain kids are beyond help when they haven't even been given proper resources. That's a bad conclusion to make for them and for our entire country.

cpwill · Apr 7, 2012

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

Gimmesometruth said:
Um, the problem as always is JOBS, there are not enough JOBS that match the skill set present.

true. and it is excellent that the discussion has therefore turned to our failed educational system, which is not a little bit responsible for that.

If your argument is that they need to increase their skill sets, sure, but to what

well, for example, we currently have a shortage of plumbers in this nation. electricians, too. neither of those jobs exactly require a college degree. average total compensation for a plumber is about $59,000, though to be fair their base pay is closer to $40K.

what we don't need is more fools who spent a leisurely half-decade at State U getting a General Studies Degree with an emphasis in Public Drunkenness.

yet we as a society support and we as a government fund people pursuing the second more than the former.

and how does one do that while being un/under/employed? Good paying low-mid level jobs (manufacturing, municipal) have been decimated through off-shoring, automation and reduced state spending. The middle class is being divided where some have been able to push upwards while most are dropping down.

you are correct that the Middle Class is bifurcating. But you are incorrect when you seek to draw out the main drivers of that trend.

If I can suggest some quick reading. The main drivers, you will find, are behavioral.

Of course, most of your argument is based on the premise that "welfare" still exists at levels of the past. Did you skip the 90's?

i'll admit, I'm not really sure what you are trying to get at here. I'm not against some public support, I just think we should do it more intelligently.

MaggieD · Apr 7, 2012

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

justabubba said:
what can actually be done for the student who does not value education
for the student who will not do the work to achieve an education
what system will educate that student who prefers ignorance, often because it is the easier path

You can keep all the students who want to learn, who crave an education in the seats next to them so they can all fail while "we try to fix this thing." That's sarcasm, by the way.

cpwill · Apr 7, 2012

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

justabubba said:
what can actually be done for the student who does not value education

not much, except to stop making it easier for them not to do so, let them experience the results of their poor decision and hopefully respond accordingly.

for the student who will not do the work to achieve an education

not much, except to not subsidize sloth, and let them experience the results of their poor decision and hopefully respond accordingly

What system will educate that student who prefers ignorance, often because it is the easier path

not much indeed. except to eventually let the child touch the hot stove and learn why it is you don't do that.

ThePlayDrive · Apr 7, 2012

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

justabubba said:
what can actually be done for the student who does not value education
for the student who will not do the work to achieve an education
what system will educate that student who prefers ignorance, often because it is the easier path

It depends on which kids your talking about. Are you talking about kids who aren't interested in anything on the planet or kids who have interests that aren't tapped into at school?

cpwill · Apr 7, 2012

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

MaggieD said:
You can keep all the students who want to learn, who crave an education in the seats next to them so they can all fail while "we try to fix this thing." That's sarcasm, by the way.

I wish it was, but sadly, that seems at current to actually be The Plan

.

ThePlayDrive · Apr 7, 2012

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

MaggieD said:
You can keep all the students who want to learn, who crave an education in the seats next to them so they can all fail while "we try to fix this thing." That's sarcasm, by the way.

I don't think anybody is arguing for a system where "they all fail".

justabubba · Apr 7, 2012

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

ThePlayDrive said:
It depends on which kids your talking about. Are you talking about kids who aren't interested in anything on the planet or kids who have interests that aren't tapped into at school?

kids who simply don't want to be in school

haymarket · Apr 7, 2012

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

MaggieD said:
Hatred? I don't understand how you can come to that conclusion.

Lots of folks seem to have lots of anger and negativity that people vote the way they do. That comes across loud and clear.

cpwill · Apr 7, 2012

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

justabubba said:
kids who simply don't want to be in school

well, maybe we should get off of this stupid "everyone should go to college" kick, and offer a way for those kids to off-track into actual training programs where they learn actual skill sets.

Fubar · Apr 7, 2012

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

megaprogman said:
Not at all. The basis of my belief lies outside of the educational system itself. So changing the educational system one way or another, will not do anything if the person they are trying to reach doesn't care.

Your solution is for kids that want to learn but have not found a system that works well for them.

These are two different groups of people. However, they can appear the same to the outside observer.

It is not the system or the students.it's the parents.they have the main fault.to materialistic and no sense of responsability.

Slartibartfast · Apr 7, 2012

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

Fubar said:
It is not the system or the students.it's the parents.they have the main fault.to materialistic and no sense of responsability.

Yes, I already went over the effect of cultural influence.

ThePlayDrive · Apr 7, 2012

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

justabubba said:
kids who simply don't want to be in school

Yes, but why don't they want to be in school?

The problem is that some people think that when a kid "doesn't want to be in school", then that's the end of the conversation. In other words, if they don't want to be in school, then there isn't anything that can be done to help them succeed. The problem with that line of thinking is that it doesn't consider the questions, "can a school practically do anything to make a student want to be there?" and "do certain schools do more to interest students more than others?" The answer to both of those questions is "yes".

So unless you can show that all "uninterested" students in poorly performing schools cannot be "made interested" in a practical, cost effective manner in the similar ways to how highly performing schools tend to interest their students, then whether or not students are "interested" is just another obstacle that CERTAIN (usually poor and minority) schools have failed to address.

Kandahar · Apr 7, 2012

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

apdst said:
And, we have our fellow members of our community to thank for that reaction.

It really doesn't matter whose fault it is, and by framing it as an issue of blame and by faulting black people for racism against black people, you are essentially saying that it's not an issue for anyone else to worry about, which is simply not true. If a black police officer is more likely to pull over black drivers for the same infractions (or for "suspicion"), for example, it's still racism...the race of the cop is irrelevant. The NYT had an interesting op-ed piece this week, which addressed this very issue, in the context of black-on-black violence. I think it's equally applicable to other situations where people blame the "black community" for racism against blacks:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/06/opinion/playing-the-violence-card.html?_r=1&ref=opinion

Here’s how it works. When confronted with an instance of racially charged violence against a black person, a commentator draws attention to the fact that there is much more black-on-black violence than white-on-black violence. To play the violence card — as many criminal-justice advocates have done since the Rodney King police brutality case of the early 1990s — is to suggest that black people should worry more about the harm they do to themselves and less about how victimized they are by others.

It’s true that black-on-black violence is an exceptionally grave problem. But this does not explain the allure of the violence card, which perpetuates the reassuring notion that violence against black people is not society’s concern but rather a problem for black people to fix on their own.

Redress · Apr 7, 2012

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

cpwill said:
Good point. For example, there are people out there who believe that nominal rate changes are the same thing as tax hikes or cuts - thereby demonstrating that they do not understand the meaning of the word "nominal" v, say, "effective". Clearly such people can be safely ignored, and, probably, frankly, shouldn't be allowed to vote.

Good thing no one said that.

sawyerloggingon · Apr 7, 2012

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

cpwill said:
well, maybe we should get off of this stupid "everyone should go to college" kick, and offer a way for those kids to off-track into actual training programs where they learn actual skill sets.

I would be satisfied if everyone just finished HS. At least then you have enough education to pursue learning on your own accord, library's are wonderful things.

cpwill · Apr 7, 2012

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

Redress said:
Good thing no one said that.

no kidding - can you imagine someone so foolish as to claim that a nominal tax rate reduction is the same thing as a tax cut?

Gimmesometruth · Apr 7, 2012

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

cpwill said:
true. and it is excellent that the discussion has therefore turned to our failed educational system, which is not a little bit responsible for that.

well, for example, we currently have a shortage of plumbers in this nation. electricians, too. neither of those jobs exactly require a college degree. average total compensation for a plumber is about $59,000, though to be fair their base pay is closer to $40K.

Right...the construction sector has the largest number of un/under/employed workers....and yet there is a "shortage" of these workers. BS.

what we don't need is more fools who spent a leisurely half-decade at State U getting a General Studies Degree with an emphasis in Public Drunkenness.yet we as a society support and we as a government fund people pursuing the second more than the former. you are correct that the Middle Class is bifurcating. But you are incorrect when you seek to draw out the main drivers of that trend.If I can suggest some quick reading. The main drivers, you will find, are behavioral.i'll admit, I'm not really sure what you are trying to get at here. I'm not against some public support, I just think we should do it more intelligently.

Again, another BS argument, it is not "the behavior" of workers that is causing the loss of manufacturing/construction/municipal middle class employment....at all. That is this most irresponsible "blaming the victim" argument of the century, not to mention totally intellectually dishonest.

Gimmesometruth · Apr 7, 2012

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

Bumped, still waiting for a response...

MaggieD said:
They can't increase their skill sets until they have a good education. They aren't getting a good education. Hell, in inner cities, they're not even getting an education. Their role models are often the drug dealers in the neighborhoods. The welfare system has all but destroyed their families. They've been screwed, blued and tattoed by a system that says, "Here, let me help you."

Gimmesometruth said:
There you go with the welfare thing. Welfare has been reduced to very low levels, you cons can't keep using this as an argument. Again, I post that article that you "liked", but I wonder if you read it. The ability for any group to climb out of an economic strata is very difficult, especially here in the US. We have some of the lowest levels of economic mobility of the major industrial states and it is not getting better. It is not a matter of race, this is the case for ALL races, it is a matter of quintiles. Again, the greatest obstacle for any group is the combination of education AND opportunity. Yes, you can get educated, but often the jobs are either moving or the industry has declined. You train for one job, the job disappears. I trained as a drafter, autocad decimated that field and the decline in manufacturing knocked it down further, not to mention the wholesale wiping out of construction related jobs. Apple's CEO complains that the skill sets they need to manufacture their products don't exist here. BS. There are plenty of out of work electronic line workers (and the training required is minimal), they won't do it because of decreased profit (even though the costs increase only @ 20% for a product that is in insane demand).

If the US allows the decimation of its industrial base, if it does not have an industrial policy and instead allows corporations to rule the economic system of the country, then we will continue to have declines in economic mobility.

Again, you want to blame the victim. They are not in control of their future job opportunities as much as you like to think they are.

MaggieD · Apr 7, 2012

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

Gimmesometruth said:
Bumped, still waiting for a response...

I missed it Gimme, sorry.

Welfare has only recently been reformed. It's much better now than it used to be, but the bones of creating dependency aren't gone -- either in the system or in the mindset of people who see it as an entitlement and means to an end.

You say I want to blame the victim. No. I want to blame the system that created the victim: a failing school system and a welfare system, only recently somewhat reformed, that makes getting on the dole a job objective.

I am also not talking specifically about blacks. I'm talking about all inner-city poor.

cpwill · Apr 7, 2012

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

Gimmesometruth said:
Right...the construction sector has the largest number of un/under/employed workers....and yet there is a "shortage" of these workers. BS.

:doh "plumber" =/= "construction". You may be interested in reading up, as you apparently have no idea what you are talking about.

Again, another BS argument, it is not "the behavior" of workers that is causing the loss of manufacturing/construction/municipal middle class employment....at all.

you are right. especially since these things are not occurring. what is occurring is that American society is bifurcating. let me know when you are willing to actually look at the stats rather than simply ranting.

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