Are all black men brainwashed? (Read Warning: post #540)

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

justabubba said:

what about the parents you do not give a rip about their kid's education
unfortunately, there are a lot of them
how are they going to choose the best school? probably based on which fly by night 'charter' school offers them the biggest kickback if they send their child to that school
now that will really help the kid get a good education and escape their present condition [/s]

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Have a look at this one:

MaggieD said:

I am amazed at the results we're seeing here in Chicago with three charter schools located in the inner city. Simply amazed.

Called the Urban Prep Academy, this organization has three campuses. They began in 2006, starting with an enrollment of freshmen and now have all four years. with a 2011 enrollment 925 students over the three campuses. Entrance is determined by lottery.

They have had two graduating classes since their inception. 100% of their students were accepted into college. Yes, that's right. 100%. Compared with 33% from Chicago Public Schools. These schools enroll African-American males; 85% low-income; 85% begin at Urban Prep reading below grade level. Their uniform is a suit and tie.

30% leave Urban Prep Academy before completion -- compared to CPS's 61% drop-out rate.

In 2009, 450 students received $8484 per student from CPS. They spent $11,533 receiving the balance of funding from charitable donations
In 2009, CPS spent $15,000 per pupil.

This is, in my opinion, a real breakthrough in education. I hope the right people are watching.

Welcome to Urban Prep

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Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

megaprogman said:

Thats the advantage of a bunch of smaller schools. The parent can get a catalog and go "well this one is good at teaching science, that one is good at liberal arts, etc"

The parents who bother to make a choice get first dibs. Everyone else just gets assigned. The segregation between parents who care and don't will happen

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but in public schools, such segregation does not happen (within a school district)
each kid within that district has the same opportunity to get an education as any other
that they have sorry parents who will expect a kick back from a for-profit school owner/operator will not impair the kid's educational opportunity - IF they are attending public school
the voucher system only substitutes one problem for another. it does not move our education system forward

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

ThePlayDrive said:

That segregation is one the main problems of the education system now. A voucher system would just keep that pattern. Why not spend our limited money and energy improving ALL schools with systems that have proven benefits instead of simply letting certain kids choose to go to other schools?

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The old adage, you can lead a horse to water, but not make him drink. If a student is not raised in a family culture that values education, they are more likely to follow that example. If they don't value something, no amount of help is going to chance that.

What we can do though is, once there is a proven example, show it off and those who gave up hope will see something to hope for and begin to care again, thus raising the overall achievement level.

So get the good students together, others will go "hey that works, I want to be a part of that" and the system should be able to spread.

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

MaggieD said:

Have a look at this one:

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that charter school is an excellent lab to explore what is being done right, so that those things can be exported to other schools
i do not expect to see all of our schools operated so well
for every good school like that there are many failed charter schools
which causes me to recognize many children are going to get the short end of the educational stick if we move to a voucher system

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

megaprogman said:

The old adage, you can lead a horse to water, but not make him drink. If a student is not raised in a family culture that values education, they are more likely to follow that example. If they don't value something, no amount of help is going to chance that.

What we can do though is, once there is a proven example, show it off and those who gave up hope will see something to hope for and begin to care again, thus raising the overall achievement level.

So get the good students together, others will go "hey that works, I want to be a part of that" and the system should be able to spread.

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Meh, there are already proven ways to improve the ENTIRE education system so that you can "make students drink" and they aren't vouchers or charter schools. I'd rather improve the entire system and not just say, "no amount of help is going to change that." That's last part is a myth and an unfortunate one at that.

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

MaggieD said:

Have a look at this one:

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Well, Maggie, I'm not arguing that this isn't good news or a welcome development, but I personally believe that a lot of these results can at least be partially attributed to "cream skimming," rather than solving the root of the problem.

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

justabubba said:

that charter school is an excellent lab to explore what is being done right, so that those things can be exported to other schools
i do not expect to see all of our schools operated so well
for every good school like that there are many failed charter schools
which causes me to recognize many children are going to get the short end of the educational stick if we move to a voucher system

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I'm not advocating a voucher system. I'm advocating for better schools for inner-city youth. (I just mean that's not an argument I'm trying to make.) But this particular snippet from your quote?

...causes me to recognize many children are going to get the short end of the educational stick if we move to a voucher system

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Inner city kids are already getting, not only the short end of the educational stick, but the shaft by the dismal failure of public schools.

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

StillBallin75 said:

Well, Maggie, I'm not arguing that this isn't good news or a welcome development, but I personally believe that a lot of these results can at least be partially attributed to "cream skimming," rather than solving the root of the problem.

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Of course they can be partially attributed to "cream skimming." I completely agree. Let's skim cream!!! Let's get the kids who want an education out of a failing system and into one that lets that cream learn something. Put them in an environment that's safe. That creates a competitive spirit. That has in place all the ingredients kids need so desperately in order to enjoy learning. That is so much better than letting these so-called "cream" students sit in a classroom and be babysat. At least I think so.

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

ThePlayDrive said:

Meh, there are already proven ways to improve the ENTIRE education system so that you can "make students drink" and they aren't vouchers or charter schools. I'd rather improve the entire system and not just say, "no amount of help is going to change that." That's last part is a myth and an unfortunate one at that.

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I agree and disagree. My comment was in the context of a culture. If you can change the culture to a better one resulting in better achievement, than I am all for that too. Changing culture is hard though, especially since you have to get parents involved.

For example, my two boys are both at the top of their class (and in the old days, the older one would have been allowed to skip two grades), but they also take a lot of pride in what they know and what they can learn and compete against each other all day long. I am somewhat responsible for that because I place such an emphasis on myself for knowing things and they picked up on it by watching my behavior.

Alternatively, my sister in law's kids are also very intelligent, but their dad is a drunk who does not place value in education and the two girls are having a lot of trouble in schools. They don't use what they have, because they do not value it. The ability of teachers to change that is limited and the right personality has to be in the right place and at the right time (not necessarily teaching skill, but a teacher who develops a bit of a relationship with whatever student, which is a function of matching personalities, not teaching skill). Personal connections do far more for our values than logic, programs, or any other structural elements.

So while, you are right, programs can help kids become more education, I can't see where they will ever solve the fundamental problem (which is a US culture that values money over intelligence and skill) because its something solved by interpersonal relationships, not better qualified teachers or testing.

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

MaggieD said:

Inner city kids are already getting, not only the short end of the educational stick, but the shaft by the dismal failure of public schools.

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Which is why the entire system should be improved instead of part of it as a quick fix. Vouchers are a quick fix that will only benefit some students who probably do well in the current system regardless of which school they attend. Again, academics have already come up with many ways to effectively instruct children who some people believe "can't be forced to drink". It's better to improve the entire system for all kids instead of just the chosen few.

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

MaggieD said:

They can't increase their skill sets until they have a good education. They aren't getting a good education. Hell, in inner cities, they're not even getting an education. Their role models are often the drug dealers in the neighborhoods. The welfare system has all but destroyed their families. They've been screwed, blued and tattoed by a system that says, "Here, let me help you."

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There you go with the welfare thing. Welfare has been reduced to very low levels, you cons can't keep using this as an argument. Again, I post that article that you "liked", but I wonder if you read it. The ability for any group to climb out of an economic strata is very difficult, especially here in the US. We have some of the lowest levels of economic mobility of the major industrial states and it is not getting better. It is not a matter of race, this is the case for ALL races, it is a matter of quintiles. Again, the greatest obstacle for any group is the combination of education AND opportunity. Yes, you can get educated, but often the jobs are either moving or the industry has declined. You train for one job, the job disappears. I trained as a drafter, autocad decimated that field and the decline in manufacturing knocked it down further, not to mention the wholesale wiping out of construction related jobs. Apple's CEO complains that the skill sets they need to manufacture their products don't exist here. BS. There are plenty of out of work electronic line workers (and the training required is minimal), they won't do it because of decreased profit (even though the costs increase only @ 20% for a product that is in insane demand).

If the US allows the decimation of its industrial base, if it does not have an industrial policy and instead allows corporations to rule the economic system of the country, then we will continue to have declines in economic mobility.

Again, you want to blame the victim. They are not in control of their future job opportunities as much as you like to think they are.

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

MaggieD said:

Of course they can be partially attributed to "cream skimming." I completely agree. Let's skim cream!!! Let's get the kids who want an education out of a failing system and into one that lets that cream learn something. Put them in an environment that's safe. That creates a competitive spirit. That has in place all the ingredients kids need so desperately in order to enjoy learning. That is so much better than letting these so-called "cream" students sit in a classroom and be babysat. At least I think so.

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Well, yes, I agree. For an individual family or student making such a decision, it's great for them. But it still doesn't solve the systematic problem with inner city schools. You're going to continue having separate and unequal institutions where a portion of students are still being left behind. This is where I agree with TPD.

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

StillBallin75 said:

Well, yes, I agree. For an individual family or student making such a decision, it's great for them. But it still doesn't solve the systematic problem with inner city schools. You're going to continue having separate and unequal institutions where a portion of students are still being left behind. This is where I agree with TPD.

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Well, if they are being left behind anyway in either school structure, what CAN you do?

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

ThePlayDrive said:

Which is why the entire system should be improved instead of part of it as a quick fix. Vouchers are a quick fix that will only benefit some students who probably do well in the current system regardless of which school they attend. Again, academics have already come up with many ways to effectively instruct children who some people believe "can't be forced to drink". It's better to improve the entire system for all kids instead of just the chosen few.

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And in the ten years it will take to improve an entire system, an entire generation, at least, will be lost. Saying, "It's better to improve the entire system..." is just another way of protecting the status quo.

It's not like these inner-city schools ever worked...not like they were working and then broke...they've been broke since they opened. Some say, "Let's fix 'em!!" Others believe they are beyond hope.

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

megaprogman said:

I agree and disagree. My comment was in the context of a culture. If you can change the culture to a better one resulting in better achievement, than I am all for that too. Changing culture is hard though, especially since you have to get parents involved.

For example, my two boys are both at the top of their class (and in the old days, the older one would have been allowed to skip two grades), but they also take a lot of pride in what they know and what they can learn and compete against each other all day long. I am somewhat responsible for that because I place such an emphasis on myself for knowing things and they picked up on it by watching my behavior.

Alternatively, my sister in law's kids are also very intelligent, but their dad is a drunk who does not place value in education and the two girls are having a lot of trouble in schools. They don't use what they have, because they do not value it. The ability of teachers to change that is limited and the right personality has to be in the right place and at the right time (not necessarily teaching skill, but a teacher who develops a bit of a relationship with whatever student, which is a function of matching personalities, not teaching skill).

So while, you are right, programs can help kids become more education, I can't see where they will ever solve the fundamental problem (which is a US culture that values money over intelligence and skill) because its something solved by interpersonal relationships, not better qualified teachers or testing.

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The thing is, you don't have to change the culture in order to effectively educate students in an "anti-education environment" (for lack of a better phrase). When understanding the actions of an entire group, it's better to look at patterns of behavior and influence in that group. When understanding how to counter those patterns, it's better to look at the outliers within that group.

In poor environments, outliers who exist within that "anti-education" culture go on to be successful for some reason or another. They face the same pressures as everyone else, but some thing or combination of those things changes their path. Those outlying factors are what public schools in those areas need to focus on. And again, there are proven methods of turning those outliers into the pattern. (I don't have access to the studies now, but if I find them, I'll post them later.) This just isn't a case of "certain kids just aren't going to be successful in this culture". This is a case of "there are methods to give them the same tools as more successful students, but the government hasn't implemented them for certain reasons".

It doesn't make sense to conclude that certain kids just can't be made to "drink" when they haven't even been properly lead to the water.

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

megaprogman said:

Well, if they are being left behind anyway in either school structure, what CAN you do?

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Improve existing public schools, even in the inner city as TPD has said. This is something that can and should be done, but hasn't due to the entrenched politics of both sides.

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

StillBallin75 said:

Well, yes, I agree. For an individual family or student making such a decision, it's great for them. But it still doesn't solve the systematic problem with inner city schools. You're going to continue having separate and unequal institutions where a portion of students are still being left behind. This is where I agree with TPD.

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Why can't we do both? Why can't we still fix the public school system? Why is the only solution to fixing the problem rest in keeping all kids in it 'til we can? If you lived in the inner-city with your kids and had an option to remove them and give them a twenty-times better chance at getting an education, would you still be saying, "Let's give them a chance to fix it?" I don't think you would. I think you would demand options.

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

MaggieD said:

And in the ten years it will take to improve an entire system, an entire generation, at least, will be lost. Saying, "It's better to improve the entire system..." is just another way of protecting the status quo.

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indeed. letting the perfect be the enemy of the good is poor strategy.

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

megaprogman said:

Well, if they are being left behind anyway in either school structure, what CAN you do?

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Have you considered that both school structures just repeat the same systemic problems that cause them to be left behind?

For example, let's say that I give you a blue candy bar. You try it and you hate it. I come back the next day and give a new candy car. This one is red and I changed two ingredients, but not the ingredient that you hated. Would it make sense to just say, "well he's just incapable of liking candy bars?" No, it wouldn't because changing the color of the system and a few irrelevant ingredients does nothing to fix the problem. That is the exact problem of the voucher system. It makes some surface changes and changes a few ingredients, but it leaves all of the system problems there. Consequently, to fault students for being "left behind" is wrongheaded. It's the system.

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

MaggieD said:

Why can't we do both? Why can't we still fix the public school system? Why is the only solution to fixing the problem rest in keeping all kids in it 'til we can? If you lived in the inner-city with your kids and had an option to remove them and give them a twenty-times better chance at getting an education, would you still be saying, "Let's give them a chance to fix it?" I don't think you would. I think you would demand options.

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Careful Maggie, the success of one system does not mean that the whole scheme will be successful or serve all students equally. Charter schools inherently take students that have parents that give a damn and students that give a damn and they have the option to throw substandard learners to the wolves. Thus their achievements are not comparable to a traditional school system that has more constraints. Its not a solution that will work for everyone and all students for that reason.

However, I don't think any solution will work for everyone, so we need to come up with something that does the best for the most people, recognizing that some will fail and there is nothing to be done about it (it sucks, but its reality). So careful about claims that this is 20x better than that for those reasons.

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

StillBallin75 said:

Well, Maggie, I'm not arguing that this isn't good news or a welcome development, but I personally believe that a lot of these results can at least be partially attributed to "cream skimming," rather than solving the root of the problem.

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perhaps. in fact, there is almost certainly at least an element of that in there - though I would look severe askance on anyone claiming it is the only or even the preponderant factor.

but explain, again, why we should deliberately screw (say) 20% of poor urban children simply because we cannot help 100% of their classmates? If you are faced with a burning building full of people, do you say to yourself, "Well, self, we can't pull out all of them in time, so we might as well not pull out any of them."?

It strikes me that complaints that thus far reforms have only helped some people are more designed to provide subjective arguments designed to protect the status quo.

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

ThePlayDrive said:

Have you considered that both school structures just repeat the same systemic problems that cause them to be left behind?

For example, let's say that I give you a blue candy bar. You try it and you hate it. I come back the next day and give a new candy car. This one is red and I changed two ingredients, but not the ingredient that you hated. Would it make sense to just say, "well he's just incapable of liking candy bars?" No, it wouldn't because changing the color of the system and a few irrelevant ingredients does nothing to fix the problem. That is the exact problem of the voucher system. It makes some surface changes and changes a few ingredients, but it leaves all of the system problems there. Consequently, to fault students for being "left behind" is wrongheaded. It's the system.

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Yes TPD, I am quite aware of different learning styles, teaching methods, etc (Just so you know, I was an education major for a while and my family and church group is very involved in education as a profession, I have regular exposure to it). Thats not going to help everyone. Yes, you will get the kids who want to learn but don't have someone to teach them on their level and that is great, but also there is no reason why small school a isn't primarily auditory while subschool b is primarily kinesthetic. There would be enough flexibility to do that.

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

megaprogman said:

Careful Maggie, the success of one system does not mean that the whole scheme will be successful or serve all students equally. Charter schools inherently take students that have parents that give a damn and students that give a damn and they have the option to throw substandard learners to the wolves. Thus their achievements are not comparable to a traditional school system that has more constraints. Its not a solution that will work for everyone and all students for that reason.

However, I don't think any solution will work for everyone, so we need to come up with something that does the best for the most people, recognizing that some will fail and there is nothing to be done about it (it sucks, but its reality). So careful about claims that this is 20x better than that for those reasons.

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I've just GOT to stop with the hyperbole. :rofl

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

MaggieD said:

And in the ten years it will take to improve an entire system, an entire generation, at least, will be lost. Saying, "It's better to improve the entire system..." is just another way of protecting the status quo.

Some say, "Let's fix 'em!!" Others believe they are beyond hope.

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Not really. Plenty of immediate changes would see drastic improvements quite quickly. In inner cities that have more at-risk kids, increased counseling services would immediately help many students. As would increased summer and school time extracurriculars to keep kids off the streets. As would an increase in one-on-one tutoring which would immediately help students who don't understand material. There are plenty of things that would take much less than one generation to help students. If you want to believe there isn't any hope for some schools, then you are believing something that is contrary to evidence.

It's not like these inner-city schools ever worked...not like they were working and then broke...they've been broke since they opened.

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That's just not true for a lot of places.

Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

ThePlayDrive said:

Have you considered that both school structures just repeat the same systemic problems that cause them to be left behind?

For example, let's say that I give you a blue candy bar. You try it and you hate it. I come back the next day and give a new candy car. This one is red and I changed two ingredients, but not the ingredient that you hated. Would it make sense to just say, "well he's just incapable of liking candy bars?" No, it wouldn't because changing the color of the system and a few irrelevant ingredients does nothing to fix the problem. That is the exact problem of the voucher system. It makes some surface changes and changes a few ingredients, but it leaves all of the system problems there. Consequently, to fault students for being "left behind" is wrongheaded. It's the system.

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while i agree with much of your post, the reality is some students WILL be left behind when it comes to achieving an education
some can't get it, others don't want it
no one, other than themselves, can make them do the work to attain it
doesn't matter what system they are in

but that reality does not mean that our educational system is not ripe for a complete overhaul