View Poll Results: Are all black men brainwashed?

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  • Yes

    5 8.33%
  • No

    51 85.00%
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Thread: Are all black men brainwashed? (Read Warning: post #540)

  1. #441
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Well, if they are being left behind anyway in either school structure, what CAN you do?
    Improve existing public schools, even in the inner city as TPD has said. This is something that can and should be done, but hasn't due to the entrenched politics of both sides.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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  2. #442
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Well, yes, I agree. For an individual family or student making such a decision, it's great for them. But it still doesn't solve the systematic problem with inner city schools. You're going to continue having separate and unequal institutions where a portion of students are still being left behind. This is where I agree with TPD.
    Why can't we do both? Why can't we still fix the public school system? Why is the only solution to fixing the problem rest in keeping all kids in it 'til we can? If you lived in the inner-city with your kids and had an option to remove them and give them a twenty-times better chance at getting an education, would you still be saying, "Let's give them a chance to fix it?" I don't think you would. I think you would demand options.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  3. #443
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    And in the ten years it will take to improve an entire system, an entire generation, at least, will be lost. Saying, "It's better to improve the entire system..." is just another way of protecting the status quo.
    indeed. letting the perfect be the enemy of the good is poor strategy.

  4. #444
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Well, if they are being left behind anyway in either school structure, what CAN you do?
    Have you considered that both school structures just repeat the same systemic problems that cause them to be left behind?

    For example, let's say that I give you a blue candy bar. You try it and you hate it. I come back the next day and give a new candy car. This one is red and I changed two ingredients, but not the ingredient that you hated. Would it make sense to just say, "well he's just incapable of liking candy bars?" No, it wouldn't because changing the color of the system and a few irrelevant ingredients does nothing to fix the problem. That is the exact problem of the voucher system. It makes some surface changes and changes a few ingredients, but it leaves all of the system problems there. Consequently, to fault students for being "left behind" is wrongheaded. It's the system.

  5. #445
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Why can't we do both? Why can't we still fix the public school system? Why is the only solution to fixing the problem rest in keeping all kids in it 'til we can? If you lived in the inner-city with your kids and had an option to remove them and give them a twenty-times better chance at getting an education, would you still be saying, "Let's give them a chance to fix it?" I don't think you would. I think you would demand options.
    Careful Maggie, the success of one system does not mean that the whole scheme will be successful or serve all students equally. Charter schools inherently take students that have parents that give a damn and students that give a damn and they have the option to throw substandard learners to the wolves. Thus their achievements are not comparable to a traditional school system that has more constraints. Its not a solution that will work for everyone and all students for that reason.

    However, I don't think any solution will work for everyone, so we need to come up with something that does the best for the most people, recognizing that some will fail and there is nothing to be done about it (it sucks, but its reality). So careful about claims that this is 20x better than that for those reasons.

  6. #446
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Well, Maggie, I'm not arguing that this isn't good news or a welcome development, but I personally believe that a lot of these results can at least be partially attributed to "cream skimming," rather than solving the root of the problem.
    perhaps. in fact, there is almost certainly at least an element of that in there - though I would look severe askance on anyone claiming it is the only or even the preponderant factor.

    but explain, again, why we should deliberately screw (say) 20% of poor urban children simply because we cannot help 100% of their classmates? If you are faced with a burning building full of people, do you say to yourself, "Well, self, we can't pull out all of them in time, so we might as well not pull out any of them."?

    It strikes me that complaints that thus far reforms have only helped some people are more designed to provide subjective arguments designed to protect the status quo.

  7. #447
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Have you considered that both school structures just repeat the same systemic problems that cause them to be left behind?

    For example, let's say that I give you a blue candy bar. You try it and you hate it. I come back the next day and give a new candy car. This one is red and I changed two ingredients, but not the ingredient that you hated. Would it make sense to just say, "well he's just incapable of liking candy bars?" No, it wouldn't because changing the color of the system and a few irrelevant ingredients does nothing to fix the problem. That is the exact problem of the voucher system. It makes some surface changes and changes a few ingredients, but it leaves all of the system problems there. Consequently, to fault students for being "left behind" is wrongheaded. It's the system.
    Yes TPD, I am quite aware of different learning styles, teaching methods, etc (Just so you know, I was an education major for a while and my family and church group is very involved in education as a profession, I have regular exposure to it). Thats not going to help everyone. Yes, you will get the kids who want to learn but don't have someone to teach them on their level and that is great, but also there is no reason why small school a isn't primarily auditory while subschool b is primarily kinesthetic. There would be enough flexibility to do that.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 04-07-12 at 01:40 PM.

  8. #448
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Careful Maggie, the success of one system does not mean that the whole scheme will be successful or serve all students equally. Charter schools inherently take students that have parents that give a damn and students that give a damn and they have the option to throw substandard learners to the wolves. Thus their achievements are not comparable to a traditional school system that has more constraints. Its not a solution that will work for everyone and all students for that reason.

    However, I don't think any solution will work for everyone, so we need to come up with something that does the best for the most people, recognizing that some will fail and there is nothing to be done about it (it sucks, but its reality). So careful about claims that this is 20x better than that for those reasons.
    I've just GOT to stop with the hyperbole.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  9. #449
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    And in the ten years it will take to improve an entire system, an entire generation, at least, will be lost. Saying, "It's better to improve the entire system..." is just another way of protecting the status quo.

    Some say, "Let's fix 'em!!" Others believe they are beyond hope.
    Not really. Plenty of immediate changes would see drastic improvements quite quickly. In inner cities that have more at-risk kids, increased counseling services would immediately help many students. As would increased summer and school time extracurriculars to keep kids off the streets. As would an increase in one-on-one tutoring which would immediately help students who don't understand material. There are plenty of things that would take much less than one generation to help students. If you want to believe there isn't any hope for some schools, then you are believing something that is contrary to evidence.

    It's not like these inner-city schools ever worked...not like they were working and then broke...they've been broke since they opened.
    That's just not true for a lot of places.

  10. #450
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Have you considered that both school structures just repeat the same systemic problems that cause them to be left behind?

    For example, let's say that I give you a blue candy bar. You try it and you hate it. I come back the next day and give a new candy car. This one is red and I changed two ingredients, but not the ingredient that you hated. Would it make sense to just say, "well he's just incapable of liking candy bars?" No, it wouldn't because changing the color of the system and a few irrelevant ingredients does nothing to fix the problem. That is the exact problem of the voucher system. It makes some surface changes and changes a few ingredients, but it leaves all of the system problems there. Consequently, to fault students for being "left behind" is wrongheaded. It's the system.
    while i agree with much of your post, the reality is some students WILL be left behind when it comes to achieving an education
    some can't get it, others don't want it
    no one, other than themselves, can make them do the work to attain it
    doesn't matter what system they are in

    but that reality does not mean that our educational system is not ripe for a complete overhaul
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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