View Poll Results: Are all black men brainwashed?

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    5 8.33%
  • No

    51 85.00%
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Thread: Are all black men brainwashed? (Read Warning: post #540)

  1. #431
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Have a look at this one:
    Well, Maggie, I'm not arguing that this isn't good news or a welcome development, but I personally believe that a lot of these results can at least be partially attributed to "cream skimming," rather than solving the root of the problem.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  2. #432
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    that charter school is an excellent lab to explore what is being done right, so that those things can be exported to other schools
    i do not expect to see all of our schools operated so well
    for every good school like that there are many failed charter schools
    which causes me to recognize many children are going to get the short end of the educational stick if we move to a voucher system
    I'm not advocating a voucher system. I'm advocating for better schools for inner-city youth. (I just mean that's not an argument I'm trying to make.) But this particular snippet from your quote?

    ...causes me to recognize many children are going to get the short end of the educational stick if we move to a voucher system
    Inner city kids are already getting, not only the short end of the educational stick, but the shaft by the dismal failure of public schools.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  3. #433
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Well, Maggie, I'm not arguing that this isn't good news or a welcome development, but I personally believe that a lot of these results can at least be partially attributed to "cream skimming," rather than solving the root of the problem.
    Of course they can be partially attributed to "cream skimming." I completely agree. Let's skim cream!!! Let's get the kids who want an education out of a failing system and into one that lets that cream learn something. Put them in an environment that's safe. That creates a competitive spirit. That has in place all the ingredients kids need so desperately in order to enjoy learning. That is so much better than letting these so-called "cream" students sit in a classroom and be babysat. At least I think so.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  4. #434
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Meh, there are already proven ways to improve the ENTIRE education system so that you can "make students drink" and they aren't vouchers or charter schools. I'd rather improve the entire system and not just say, "no amount of help is going to change that." That's last part is a myth and an unfortunate one at that.
    I agree and disagree. My comment was in the context of a culture. If you can change the culture to a better one resulting in better achievement, than I am all for that too. Changing culture is hard though, especially since you have to get parents involved.

    For example, my two boys are both at the top of their class (and in the old days, the older one would have been allowed to skip two grades), but they also take a lot of pride in what they know and what they can learn and compete against each other all day long. I am somewhat responsible for that because I place such an emphasis on myself for knowing things and they picked up on it by watching my behavior.

    Alternatively, my sister in law's kids are also very intelligent, but their dad is a drunk who does not place value in education and the two girls are having a lot of trouble in schools. They don't use what they have, because they do not value it. The ability of teachers to change that is limited and the right personality has to be in the right place and at the right time (not necessarily teaching skill, but a teacher who develops a bit of a relationship with whatever student, which is a function of matching personalities, not teaching skill). Personal connections do far more for our values than logic, programs, or any other structural elements.

    So while, you are right, programs can help kids become more education, I can't see where they will ever solve the fundamental problem (which is a US culture that values money over intelligence and skill) because its something solved by interpersonal relationships, not better qualified teachers or testing.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 04-07-12 at 01:24 PM.

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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Inner city kids are already getting, not only the short end of the educational stick, but the shaft by the dismal failure of public schools.
    Which is why the entire system should be improved instead of part of it as a quick fix. Vouchers are a quick fix that will only benefit some students who probably do well in the current system regardless of which school they attend. Again, academics have already come up with many ways to effectively instruct children who some people believe "can't be forced to drink". It's better to improve the entire system for all kids instead of just the chosen few.

  6. #436
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    They can't increase their skill sets until they have a good education. They aren't getting a good education. Hell, in inner cities, they're not even getting an education. Their role models are often the drug dealers in the neighborhoods. The welfare system has all but destroyed their families. They've been screwed, blued and tattoed by a system that says, "Here, let me help you."
    There you go with the welfare thing. Welfare has been reduced to very low levels, you cons can't keep using this as an argument. Again, I post that article that you "liked", but I wonder if you read it. The ability for any group to climb out of an economic strata is very difficult, especially here in the US. We have some of the lowest levels of economic mobility of the major industrial states and it is not getting better. It is not a matter of race, this is the case for ALL races, it is a matter of quintiles. Again, the greatest obstacle for any group is the combination of education AND opportunity. Yes, you can get educated, but often the jobs are either moving or the industry has declined. You train for one job, the job disappears. I trained as a drafter, autocad decimated that field and the decline in manufacturing knocked it down further, not to mention the wholesale wiping out of construction related jobs. Apple's CEO complains that the skill sets they need to manufacture their products don't exist here. BS. There are plenty of out of work electronic line workers (and the training required is minimal), they won't do it because of decreased profit (even though the costs increase only @ 20% for a product that is in insane demand).

    If the US allows the decimation of its industrial base, if it does not have an industrial policy and instead allows corporations to rule the economic system of the country, then we will continue to have declines in economic mobility.

    Again, you want to blame the victim. They are not in control of their future job opportunities as much as you like to think they are.
    Last edited by Gimmesometruth; 04-07-12 at 01:25 PM.
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  7. #437
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Of course they can be partially attributed to "cream skimming." I completely agree. Let's skim cream!!! Let's get the kids who want an education out of a failing system and into one that lets that cream learn something. Put them in an environment that's safe. That creates a competitive spirit. That has in place all the ingredients kids need so desperately in order to enjoy learning. That is so much better than letting these so-called "cream" students sit in a classroom and be babysat. At least I think so.
    Well, yes, I agree. For an individual family or student making such a decision, it's great for them. But it still doesn't solve the systematic problem with inner city schools. You're going to continue having separate and unequal institutions where a portion of students are still being left behind. This is where I agree with TPD.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  8. #438
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Well, yes, I agree. For an individual family or student making such a decision, it's great for them. But it still doesn't solve the systematic problem with inner city schools. You're going to continue having separate and unequal institutions where a portion of students are still being left behind. This is where I agree with TPD.
    Well, if they are being left behind anyway in either school structure, what CAN you do?

  9. #439
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Which is why the entire system should be improved instead of part of it as a quick fix. Vouchers are a quick fix that will only benefit some students who probably do well in the current system regardless of which school they attend. Again, academics have already come up with many ways to effectively instruct children who some people believe "can't be forced to drink". It's better to improve the entire system for all kids instead of just the chosen few.
    And in the ten years it will take to improve an entire system, an entire generation, at least, will be lost. Saying, "It's better to improve the entire system..." is just another way of protecting the status quo.

    It's not like these inner-city schools ever worked...not like they were working and then broke...they've been broke since they opened. Some say, "Let's fix 'em!!" Others believe they are beyond hope.
    Last edited by MaggieD; 04-07-12 at 01:30 PM.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I agree and disagree. My comment was in the context of a culture. If you can change the culture to a better one resulting in better achievement, than I am all for that too. Changing culture is hard though, especially since you have to get parents involved.

    For example, my two boys are both at the top of their class (and in the old days, the older one would have been allowed to skip two grades), but they also take a lot of pride in what they know and what they can learn and compete against each other all day long. I am somewhat responsible for that because I place such an emphasis on myself for knowing things and they picked up on it by watching my behavior.

    Alternatively, my sister in law's kids are also very intelligent, but their dad is a drunk who does not place value in education and the two girls are having a lot of trouble in schools. They don't use what they have, because they do not value it. The ability of teachers to change that is limited and the right personality has to be in the right place and at the right time (not necessarily teaching skill, but a teacher who develops a bit of a relationship with whatever student, which is a function of matching personalities, not teaching skill).

    So while, you are right, programs can help kids become more education, I can't see where they will ever solve the fundamental problem (which is a US culture that values money over intelligence and skill) because its something solved by interpersonal relationships, not better qualified teachers or testing.
    The thing is, you don't have to change the culture in order to effectively educate students in an "anti-education environment" (for lack of a better phrase). When understanding the actions of an entire group, it's better to look at patterns of behavior and influence in that group. When understanding how to counter those patterns, it's better to look at the outliers within that group.

    In poor environments, outliers who exist within that "anti-education" culture go on to be successful for some reason or another. They face the same pressures as everyone else, but some thing or combination of those things changes their path. Those outlying factors are what public schools in those areas need to focus on. And again, there are proven methods of turning those outliers into the pattern. (I don't have access to the studies now, but if I find them, I'll post them later.) This just isn't a case of "certain kids just aren't going to be successful in this culture". This is a case of "there are methods to give them the same tools as more successful students, but the government hasn't implemented them for certain reasons".

    It doesn't make sense to conclude that certain kids just can't be made to "drink" when they haven't even been properly lead to the water.

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