View Poll Results: Are all black men brainwashed?

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  • Yes

    5 8.33%
  • No

    51 85.00%
  • Other

    4 6.67%
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Thread: Are all black men brainwashed? (Read Warning: post #540)

  1. #261
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    you'll note that they stick to the programs. so, for example, 100% of the cuts to medicare are counted as "cuts to a program targeted to poor people" despite the fact that the largest cuts from from the wealthier individuals in the program itself.
    This is incorrect. Medicare is universal, not a program targeted to low-income people. 62% of the cuts from the Ryan budget come from things like Medicaid, Pell grants, food stamps, job training, etc. Virtually all of the participants in those programs are poor...and then you would add the poor people affected by cuts in universal programs like Medicare IN ADDITION to that 62%. In fact, Ryan's budget cuts Medicaid and other health programs for the poor almost TWICE as much as it cuts Medicare.

    Chairman Ryan Gets 62 Percent of His Huge Budget Cuts from Programs for Lower-Income Americans — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

    I would really like to see someone from the left give the "cuts to the poor" comparison between the Ryan and Obama medicare plans, given that the President's plan is to evenly cut Medicare across the populace, whereas the Ryan plan is to progressive cut Medicare, focusing the cuts in on our wealthier retirees. Obama's plan actually cuts more to the poor, but oddly, this doesn't seem to be getting much play.
    The reason it doesn't get much play is because, even assuming that that's accurate, Medicare is just a small fraction of Ryan's overall budget cuts.

    how they score the tax benefits is beyond me - they must be making some pretty impressive assumptions, especially since Ryan has stated that his preference to only remove those credits for people making more than $250,000 a year.
    That's AFTER he gives them another huge tax cut. And he doesn't even specify what credits he wants to remove.

    New Tax Cuts in Ryan Budget Would Give Millionaires $265,000 on Top of Bush Tax Cuts — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities
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  2. #262
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    This is incorrect. Medicare is universal, not a program targeted to low-income people. 62% of the cuts from the Ryan budget come from things like Medicaid, Pell grants, food stamps, job training, etc. Virtually all of the participants in those programs are poor...and then you would add the poor people affected by cuts in universal programs like Medicare IN ADDITION to that 62%. In fact, Ryan's budget cuts Medicaid and other health programs for the poor almost TWICE as much as it cuts Medicare.
    because it scores it over 10 years.

    ...House Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan’s budget plan would get at least 62 percent of its $5.3 trillion in nondefense budget cuts over ten years (relative to a continuation of current policies) from programs that serve people of limited means...
    but the Ryan plan doesn't change Medicare for anyone over the age of 55!

    and they measure relative to current policies, rather than current law. which is to say that this:

    The reason it doesn't get much play is because, even assuming that that's accurate, Medicare is just a small fraction of Ryan's overall budget cuts.
    is not only false, but that you made it up.

    the reason it "doesn't get much play" is because it is inconvenient.

    That's AFTER he gives them another huge tax cut. And he doesn't even specify what credits he wants to remove.

    New Tax Cuts in Ryan Budget Would Give Millionaires $265,000 on Top of Bush Tax Cuts — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities
    and these guys are pretending that nominal = effective rates!

    gotta love that.

    oh man. you can't make this stuff up.
    Last edited by cpwill; 04-06-12 at 01:49 PM.

  3. #263
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The Ryan budget absolutely decimates anti-poverty social programs. The CBPP estimates that 62% of the budget cuts come from programs targeted toward low-income people, and 37% of the tax benefits go to people earning more than $1 million.

    Racism and misogyny all rolled into one sentence. Keep on going with that attitude, and I'm sure Republicans will win those voters back. After all, they have nothing to be offended about...because you say so.
    Exactly. I love the implication that only unthinking women, blacks and poor people vote for Democrats that so many conservatives make. And then they wonder why the Democrats attract more minorities. Well maybe it's because some of you call them brainwashed and accused them "drinking the Kool Aid" instead of acknowledging that in thinking for themselves just disagree with you.

  4. #264
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    because it scores it over 10 years.

    but the Ryan plan doesn't change Medicare for anyone over the age of 55!
    The conventional budgetary metric is what changes they will make over 10 years. And although longer budgets are possible, predictions farther out are more difficult to make because they are usually based on the assumption that nothing changes. Who knows what the compensation of Congress will look like in 10 years? Will they actually allow these cuts to take effect? Who knows?

    To illustrate this point, let's use an exaggerated example: If Obama released a budget that called for federal spending to rise by 5% every year for the next 10 years, and then would allow it to fall by 90% in the 11th year, would you credit him with cutting overall spending? I would hope not.

    And in any case, the CBO projects his budget out farther...all the way to 2050. IMO it's a bit absurd to even make projections that far into the future, but for the sake of argument, here are how the various programs would change by 2050 under the Ryan plan according to the CBO. Even that far into the future, it's still not primarily about Medicare.

    and they measure relative to current policies, rather than current law. which is to say that this:
    Are you referring to things like the annual "Doc Fix," which is a current policy rather than a current law? If so, does Ryan's budget include any specific mechanism to force those cuts to take effect...and if not, why should we A) assume that it will actually take effect, and B) credit Ryan's budget with causing it to take effect?

    is not only false, but that you made it up.

    the reason it "doesn't get much play" is because it is inconvenient.
    Even by 2050, Ryan's budget cuts Medicare a lot less than it cuts programs for low-income people.

    and these guys are pretending that nominal = effective rates!
    Ryan's budget makes his tax cuts on nominal rates very clear and explicit. Meanwhile, on the "effective rate" side, he says that he'll reduce some tax deductions and credits for rich people, but doesn't specify which ones he'll eliminate. As such, I think it's a safe assumption that the bit about simplifying the tax code is merely political pandering, and he's far less interested in eliminating tax credits than he is in cutting taxes for rich people. And in any case, these budget watchdogs can only score the clear and understandable parts of his plan. If the Ryan budget calls for "a tax cut of X% for people making $Y, and a tax cut of P% for people making $Q...and oh yeah, we'll eliminate some credits and deductions too when we get around to it" guess which part of that equation is going to be scored. Now, if he actually wants to give some detailed information about which tax credits and deductions he'll eliminate (as he was more than happy to do when it came to spending programs for the poor), I'm sure that these budget watchdogs would be happy to factor those changes into their assessments of his overall budget.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 04-06-12 at 02:12 PM.
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  5. #265
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The Ryan budget absolutely decimates anti-poverty social programs. The CBPP estimates that 62% of the budget cuts come from programs targeted toward low-income people, and 37% of the tax benefits go to people earning more than $1 million.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I'd like to see a link on that, Kandahar.
    Chairman Ryan Gets 62 Percent of His Huge Budget Cuts from Programs for Lower-Income Americans — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities
    New Tax Cuts in Ryan Budget Would Give Millionaires $265,000 on Top of Bush Tax Cuts — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

    No matter WHAT Republicans do, there will be those unthinking women and lower-income people who will not take the time to understand. They just keep on drinkin' the Kool Aid. And, oh, how the Democrats love that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar
    Racism and misogyny all rolled into one sentence. Keep on going with that attitude, and I'm sure Republicans will win those voters back. After all, they have nothing to be offended about...because you say so.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD
    What the hell are you talking about? Now you see racism in that post? Misogyny? Good lord.
    Yes. The idea that women who vote Democrat are "unthinking" is misogynistic, and the implication that "lower-income people" vote Democrat because they are drinking the Kool-Aid is racist (yes I know you didn't explicitly mention a race, but c'mon, you aren't referring to a poor white guy in a trailer park in Alabama).

    Let me ask you this: As a woman, how did you avoid being brainwashed by the Democrats like the others were? Are you just that much smarter and better than everyone else?
    Last edited by Kandahar; 04-06-12 at 02:21 PM.
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  6. #266
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by kandahar
    Let me ask you this: As a woman, how did you avoid being brainwashed by the Democrats like the others were? Are you just that much smarter and better than everyone else?
    well, it's MaggieD, so I wouldn't be too surprised - she's a smart cookie.

    I like how you just re-link the sites I already pointed out were deeply flawed.

  7. #267
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I like how you just re-link the sites I already pointed out were deeply flawed.
    I pointed out why your assessments of their alleged flaws were, in fact, wrong.
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  8. #268
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    The Right Wing Mantra is a simple one. If you vote Republican, you're thinking outside the box. If you vote Democrat, you're brainwashed. Never you mind that the overwhelming majority of the right wing voting base is one big white cell.... where as the Democrat voting base is composed of groups who are diversified by gender, ethnicity, sexuality, class etc. It's like the white cat telling the dalmatian that he's not diverse enough.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 04-06-12 at 02:58 PM.
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  9. #269
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    what? no you didn't, you just restated them. to my point that their measure of the cuts only includes the pre-medicare cuts - which is to say, they don't count the cuts weighted towards the wealthy, and therefore they are overcounting the cuts to the poor as a percentage of total cuts - you responded by saying... that their measure of the cuts only includes the pre-medicare cuts. to my point that their measure of the tax cuts only counted the nominal rather than the effective rate cuts your response was... that they only counted the nominal rather than the effective rate cuts. to my point that the Obama plan for Medicare cuts more for the poor than the Ryan plan for Medicare, you responded... well there you just responded by asking about the Doc Fix, which I agree we shouldn't score, and which effects the projected costs of Obamacare accordingly.

    the two sources you cite remain deeply flawed. the first one claims that a majority of Ryan's cuts are on the poor... only by not counting all the cuts. the second claims that a majority of the tax reform benefits go to the rich... only by not accurately counting the effect of the tax reforms.

    i mean heck. I can prove anything so long as I am allowed to dishonestly control the input.

  10. #270
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    Re: Are all black men brainwashed?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    what? no you didn't, you just restated them. to my point that their measure of the cuts only includes the pre-medicare cuts - which is to say, they don't count the cuts weighted towards the wealthy, and therefore they are overcounting the cuts to the poor as a percentage of total cuts - you responded by saying... that their measure of the cuts only includes the pre-medicare cuts.
    No. I said that even if you fast-forward all the way to 2050 (i.e. presumably long after Ryan's Medicare cuts have taken effect), the CBO's projections show that the Ryan budget STILL cuts Medicare far less than it cuts programs for the poor. Link is in post #264.

    to my point that their measure of the tax cuts only counted the nominal rather than the effective rate cuts your response was... that they only counted the nominal rather than the effective rate cuts.
    No. I said that they counted everything the Ryan budget was clear about...the fact that this happened to be entirely nominal (i.e. percentage tax cuts) rather than effective (i.e. elimination of tax credits) is not the fault of the watchdogs or their analysis, it is the fault of the people who designed the budget. You can't just create a detailed budget plan, then tack on a footnote that says "We'll also eliminate some deductions", and expect the CBO to count that. It doesn't work that way.

    to my point that the Obama plan for Medicare cuts more for the poor than the Ryan plan for Medicare, you responded... well there you just responded by asking about the Doc Fix, which I agree we shouldn't score, and which effects the projected costs of Obamacare accordingly.
    No. You made some distinction between existing policy and existing law, and I was simply asking if that is what you are referring to. Because if it isn't, I really don't know what you're talking about.

    the two sources you cite remain deeply flawed. the first one claims that a majority of Ryan's cuts are on the poor... only by not counting all the cuts.
    It counts all the cuts...both for the standard budget time frame (10 years) and extrapolated all the way out to 2050. In both cases, the poor bear the lion's share of the cuts.

    the second claims that a majority of the tax reform benefits go to the rich... only by not accurately counting the effect of the tax reforms.
    That is because no such tax reforms were proposed by the Ryan budget. They need something a little more detailed than "eliminate some deductions" to score it...otherwise it's just a political talking point.

    i mean heck. I can prove anything so long as I am allowed to dishonestly control the input.
    Then I suggest you take that up with the people who crafted this incredibly dishonest and mean-spirited budget, which disproportionately harms the poor over any time frame you choose, and which couldn't be bothered to identify specific tax credits/deductions for the rich to eliminate despite doing a very thorough job documenting how they'd cut programs for the poor and lower marginal tax rates on the rich.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 04-06-12 at 03:19 PM.
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