View Poll Results: Do you agree with Florida Law on use of deadly force?

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Thread: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

  1. #381
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    ^ Another person who claims that being totally apathetic towards others, perfectly self-centrix and a coward is now required by law and anyone who isn't like him is a criminal who should be beaten to death.

    People used to complain about how people would just watch assaults and crime happen and do nothing. Now many people such as in that message claim that not only should people never do anything for others, but it is illegal to. They believe it is both morally wrong and even allows a person to be killed if the person acts as anything but an apathetic coward.

    I have not been in "civilized" modern society for long and there are many good and superior aspects of it for certain. But the level of cowardice, fear and lack of giving a damn about anyone who doesn't directly benefit yourself is sometimes shocking. So many if not most are not people, they are sheeple. And many rage that everyone else must be too.

    Zimmerman not only did not nothing wrong, he was one of the few people of the neighborhood who gave a damn about others and wasn't just a complete coward.
    This clearly demonstrates to me that you are not capable of handling the responsibility of carrying a firearm in public. Or perhaps this is just talk? I certainly hope so.

    You want to outright call me a coward...then do it. I am not going to report you to the moderators because it proves my point. Irrationality is the biggest problem that we as Concealed Carry Holders face. You shouldn't talk yourself up to a situation. You shouldn't call people cowards for understanding the laws, acting accordingly, and generally showing that they are responsible citizens.

    You call me a coward because I have no desire to kill someone who is NOT commiting a forcible felony? I don't want to kill someone who is even committing a petty crime. That is why it is petty. You can jerk your gun out of your pants and wildly display it at children doing graffiti, but I for one will just let the cops take of said situation. Why? Because I don't want the death of a 17 year old (and despite the image that Blackdog posted...Trayvon STILL looks like a kid to me...he looks like a scrawny baby faced child [and I am consierablly larger than him too]) on MY concious because I was being irresponsible with my carry. What if it was YOUR kid walking home at 7:00 at night?

    You seem to want to encourage people to just pull their gun at the first hint of trouble. You act as if I wouldn't react in a situation where a forcible felony was being committed. You act as if most people would just stand idly by and allow a situation to happen. I bet most people would call the cops, and those of us who carry would act if given no choice. I don't think you get that, and I don't think you get what weight it would be upon your soul to kill someone when you had a choice not to and you didn't make it. Forgive me and anyone else for not wanting to live with that, but don't you DARE mistake that for innaction or indeccision if forced into a situation. That is just stupidity and more irrationality on your part.
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

  2. #382
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
    You must of missed my point. My point, which invalidates EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOURS IN THAT POST, is that Zimmerman knew NOTHING about that kid when he started following. (With the exceptions of the obvious, he was black, he wore a hoody, it was 1 am, he was in a neighborhood prone to breakins, ...) To derive the things you listed from what he knew would paint Zimmerman as a Skizotypical, which I guess makes Zimmerman innocent if he concluded that from those facts...
    The time was 7:15 or thereabouts. Martin was pronounced dead at 7:30pm.
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

  3. #383
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Criminal justice lawyers said Corey faces an uphill battle in persuading a jury to convict Zimmerman of second-degree murder. - http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...s=rss_national

    If the state cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was not defending himself from Martin, I don't know how they will get a conviction. Going by the evidence already known to all of us. Maybe they have evidence they have not let the public in on? (Most likely) Otherwise again, I don't see how they can convince a jury.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 04-11-12 at 11:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
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  4. #384
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Good news (would've liked it better if they charged him for first degree). Now we wait and see if he'll turn his fat ass in. Hopefully the militia groups will calm themselves down and rescind the kill order on his head. I want to see the trial but if they take him out beforehand I can't say I'll feel sorry for him.
    Last edited by Michael Johnson; 04-11-12 at 11:26 PM.
    If you're not ready to die for it, put the word 'freedom' out of your vocabulary. - El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz

  5. #385
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post



    Trayvon Martin was not a kid...

    Attachment 67125691

    1. multiple LARGE tatoos, at age 17
    4. long 10-day suspension (which is why he was staying with his dad across town)
    5. heavy use of gang lingo on the remnants of his mySpace page
    6. requests for him to peddle pot on his page

    his user name "NO_LIMIT_NIGGA" could it be image scrubbing?
    So you are an ex-cop and current security proffesional? Where at? Mayberry?

    Tell me that Trayvon doesn't look like a kid to you in that picture. I will call you a bold faced liar. I am FROM an area where kids looked WAY more hardcore than that.

    Oh my lord...Tatoos at 17? Amazing that Zimmerman could see those despite the dark skin, dim light, and of course the clothing that he had on. Perhaps I missed some information, and maybe by some chance Zimmerman did spot those at some point. Forgive I haven't poured over the wealth of information on the subject.

    Heavy use of GANG lingo? What the hell is GANG lingo? Are you aware of ther term pop culture? I have friends in LAW SCHOOL at a MAJOR University who not only know, but speak in gang lingo. They listen to gang music too. Harcore rap. Stuff that glorifies that ridiculous lifestyle. Far be it from me to conclude that Martin was anything more than a wannabe gangster...aka the stereotypical 17 year old inner city black male student.

    And peddling pot on his myspace page? REALLY? So that alone is the reason he deserved to die? Or does that mean he was in a gang? Or does it just mean he was a stupid ass kid. Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't allow my children to hang out with Trayvon, but I have known plenty of kids JUST like him that were NOTHING more than a public nuissance. Doesn't mean they should be killed.

    Now it is unfortunate the man got killed. It is unfortunate Zimmerman handled it badly. It is unfortunate morons try to portray Zimmerman as less than savory while Martin is some kind of angelic hero. In the end the truth is all that matters.
    I think this is hilarious. You want to DEFEND Zimmerman and yet you make these statements? This is EXACTLY what I have been saying this entire time. The Bold is obvious. The Italics is EXACTLY what I am saying. And I cannot BELIEVE that you don't understand that Zimmerman's improper handling of the situation is what CLEARLY is the problem with the stand your ground law. How can one CLAIM to be STANDING THEIR GROUND when they sought out said "suspicious" character who reacted when confronted?

    The Underline is also obvious and perhaps we will find out with the trial.

    How can you not condemn the irresponsible behavior of Zimmerman?
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

  6. #386
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Johnson View Post
    Good news (would've liked it better if they charged him for first degree).
    For it to be first degree it would have had to been premeditated. No evidence of that at all. Of course we knew that when the SA got rid of the grand Jury. THat is the only way to get a first degree murder charge in Florida.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Johnson View Post
    Now we wait and see if he'll turn his fat ass in.
    Yes. Because the size of his ass has everything to do with this case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Johnson View Post
    Hopefully the militia groups will calm themselves down and rescind the kill order on his head. I want to see the trial but if they take him out beforehand I can't say I'll feel sorry for him.
    What an ignorant statement, I mean really.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  7. #387
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Johnson View Post
    Good news (would've liked it better if they charged him for first degree). Now we wait and see if he'll turn his fat ass in. Hopefully the militia groups will calm themselves down and rescind the kill order on his head. I want to see the trial but if they take him out beforehand I can't say I'll feel sorry for him.
    Does that picture of Trayvon posted make him look any older? Because to me he still looks like a 17 year old kid. Maybe a punk wannabe gansta....but not some badass thug who is out to burn the world down while he gets rich or dies tryin.
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

  8. #388
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    So you are an ex-cop and current security proffesional? Where at? Mayberry?
    Strawman.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    Tell me that Trayvon doesn't look like a kid to you in that picture. I will call you a bold faced liar. I am FROM an area where kids looked WAY more hardcore than that.
    So because some look more "hardcore" that somehow makes a difference? For the record, no. He looks like a young man. Of course you keep ignoring his height and age, but that's OK.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    Oh my lord...Tatoos at 17? Amazing that Zimmerman could see those despite the dark skin, dim light, and of course the clothing that he had on. Perhaps I missed some information, and maybe by some chance Zimmerman did spot those at some point. Forgive I haven't poured over the wealth of information on the subject.
    Strawman. Your comment has nothing to do with my post or the information located inside.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    Heavy use of GANG lingo? What the hell is GANG lingo? Are you aware of ther term pop culture? I have friends in LAW SCHOOL at a MAJOR University who not only know, but speak in gang lingo. They listen to gang music too. Harcore rap. Stuff that glorifies that ridiculous lifestyle. Far be it from me to conclude that Martin was anything more than a wannabe gangster...aka the stereotypical 17 year old inner city black male student.
    Your anecdotal rant is just another strawman that has nothing at all to do with my post of the information.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    And peddling pot on his myspace page? REALLY? So that alone is the reason he deserved to die? Or does that mean he was in a gang? Or does it just mean he was a stupid ass kid. Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't allow my children to hang out with Trayvon, but I have known plenty of kids JUST like him that were NOTHING more than a public nuissance. Doesn't mean they should be killed.
    You obviously don't even bother to read what people are posting and just go into strawman rant mode whenever your comments are made to look stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    I think this is hilarious. You want to DEFEND Zimmerman and yet you make these statements? This is EXACTLY what I have been saying this entire time. The Bold is obvious. The Italics is EXACTLY what I am saying. And I cannot BELIEVE that you don't understand that Zimmerman's improper handling of the situation is what CLEARLY is the problem with the stand your ground law. How can one CLAIM to be STANDING THEIR GROUND when they sought out said "suspicious" character who reacted when confronted?
    I am not defending Zimmerman, I am defending the law. He did not break the law. He messed up and poor Martin had to pay for it, but it was Martins fault for attacking him. At least that is what the evidence points to. I don't care if Zimmerman was yelling nigger come and get me! That does not give anyone the right to attack him.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    The Underline is also obvious and perhaps we will find out with the trial.
    Only to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    You are really a ridiculous character. You seem to be pro-justifiable homicide as a first course of action. How can you not condemn the irresponsible behavior of Zimmerman?
    Because Zimmermaqn's behavior did not break the law, Martins did. And yes I am pro "justifiable homicide" that's why they call it JUSTIFIABLE.

    You cut out the meat of my post and level a bunch of pointless strawman arguments. You will not address the facts or the real evidence of the case.

    Your argument is nothing but a worthless strawman. Just like the post I responded to and you continue to ignore...

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1060365123

    Any questions?
    Last edited by Black Dog; 04-11-12 at 11:48 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  9. #389
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Strawman.?
    Strawman because it is inconvienient for you to answer? Because you clearly don't get how kids are actin these days. I guess you have never actually worked with youth. That might be it.

    So because some look more "hardcore" that somehow makes a difference? For the record, no. He looks like a young man. Of course you keep ignoring his height and age, but that's OK.
    I am NOT ignoring his height and age. 17 is STILL a friggin kid to me. Hell an 18 year old while legally a man, is still naive as hell. Tell me you don't think that? I am almost 23 and I know that. I can think back now at how different I thought when I first entered college and when I was in high school. I certainly was not as rational, or as good at making decisions. Maybe better than Martin, but a side by side with myself now? Lol.

    Oh and did I mention that I am 6'1 and outweigh Martin by 60lbs? I AM about 240 (yea I am a fatty...but it helps that I do Brazillian Jiu Jitsu and Boxing). Do you know how many kids I see coming into the gym that are the EXACT description of Martin? 170 isn't that big. 6'0? Sure...taller than average, but by NO means imposing. Unless of course you count the fact that he is black and tatted up? But if I can see THAT face...you think I am going to pee my pants? Are you kidding? You want to sell Martin off as a Big Huge Tough Thug? Sell that crazy somewhere else, we're all stocked up here.

    Was that a good enough response for you? Or do I need to repeat myself ONE MORE TIME? Trayvon Martin looks like a kid. He is 170 lbs at 6'0. By no means does that make him a giant monsterous figure. That is a 23 on the BMI scale.

    Strawman. Your comment has nothing to do with my post or the information located inside.
    LMAO! You liar You said he had tatoos and that that somehow was part of the reason he wasn't a kid! Are you kidding me? It was a DIRECT response to something you posted. Do I need to go back and highlight it for you? What a joke. The fact is you CLAIMED tatoos had something to do with him being hardcore? Being not a kid? Either way it was something stupid to bring up because a tatoo is just a drawing on the skin. It doesn't change the mental thought process of a 17 year old. It also should not have impacted the decision making of an ADULT MALE that was CC at the time. Especially if he couldn't see them.

    Your anecdotal rant is just another strawman that has nothing at all to do with my post of the information.
    Do you even know what a strawman is?

    Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]-straw_man2-jpg

    Does that help? Seriously. YOU brought up the gang lingo as if it somehow had a point? I showed you that it was not something valid to bring to the table. Your post of information in itself was a strawman. I just pointed out that gang lingo has permeated our society FAR more than you apperently understand? Again...I guess you don't work with kids.

    You obviously don't even bother to read what people are posting and just go into strawman rant mode whenever your comments are made to look stupid.


    Right...because obviously all the information you put down somehow displays that Trayvon was anything more than a dumbass kid? What do you expect from a 17 year old? Perfect decision making that leads to a glammorous life of perfect grades, the right college, and so on? Are you kidding?

    I am not defending Zimmerman, I am defending the law. He did not break the law. He messed up and poor Martin had to pay for it, but it was Martins fault for attacking him. At least that is what the evidence points to. I don't care if Zimmerman was yelling nigger come and get me! That does not give anyone the right to attack him.
    And THERE IT IS! Ladies and gentlemen EXACTLY what I am pointing out. You can CLAIM that Zimmerman was technically correct (which we DO NOT KNOW and can only surmise based upon the evidence), but what is important and MUST be considered as it WILL be the basis of future propaganda and possible legislation...and depending upon verdict...legal precedent.

    Zimmerman...by your own words "messed up," and Martin paid for it. Just because you get attacked, doesn't mean that you didn't provoke it. Jumping up and down the street and yelling racial slurs (which is NOT what Zimmerman did...and I by no means am claiming he was overtly racist because that is a RIDICULOUS claim made by losers like Al Sharpton who use Black inequality, poverty, and bad circumstance to gain his own political power...and he is racist himself anyway...make) is a provocation. Certainly...being attacked for it is not RIGHT. But PERHAPS that is NOT why Martin attacked. PERHAPS it was because he was being followed. When Zimmerman had the choice to INFORM Martin of his itent...he didn't. He just willy nilly reached into his jacket for a cell phone. How would you perceive that? In your almighty wisdom as a cop? Or a security proffesional?

    Come on man. Don't feed me these garbage lines about the technicality of the law. You know that intent is VERY important. I AGREE with you that this was NOT premeditated. It was however STUPID and could have been avoided. Sure Zimmerman even had a "right" to be where he was. But the fact is that while he had a RIGHT...he shouldn't have been there...and that is what I am claiming invalidates his self defense claim. That is probably what the prosecution against him will use too. While certainly standing your ground is one thing...do you stand your ground if you go look for someone after having been in a safe location?

    Because Zimmermaqn's behavior did not break the law, Martins did. And yes I am pro "justifiable homicide" that's why they call it JUSTIFIABLE.
    I said "as a first course of action." Rather than prudence, rationality, and ensurance of safety of those around you or yourself. The last course of action should be to go chase down the bad guy when you and all parties involved in the situation are safe.

    You cut out the meat of my post and level a bunch of pointless strawman arguments. You will not address the facts or the real evidence of the case.
    Because point for point response to you is pointless when you ignore direct questions, and claim that every response I have is a strawman. Why should I consider the points you make relevant when you ignore what I say?

    Your argument is nothing but a worthless strawman. Just like the post I responded to and you continue to ignore...
    You just want to continue to go back to things that are irrelevant huh? Is it just because you want to win? The fact is that you damn well know that if acting based upon what I said would certainly have NOT landed Zimmerman into hot water. Not to mention you have completely ignored the relevant information I provided after. Again...point for point response is ridiculous with someone like you. Everything I say is a strawman to you. Of course unless you understand that discussion transforms as time progresses.

    You still don't get what I mean by the spirit of the law do you? THE SPIRIT OF THE STAND YOUR GROUND LAW IS THAT ONE HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO STAND THEIR GROUND. Zimmerman had a choice and he made the wrong one. That choice was NOT at the juncture of the conflict. It was at the point of EXITING HIS VEHICLE.

    You as a "SECURITY PROFESSIONAL AND EX COP" damn well know that if you have to shoot someone...that better be the only option you had. Of course what every cop has ever said to me..."kill them...then there is one side of the story." So I don't know? Maybe that is how you think?
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

  10. #390
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Moderator's Warning:
    Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]Ah. Another Zimmerman/Martin thread, another thread where everyone acts out. Next personal attack gets a thread ban, at least.
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