View Poll Results: Do you agree with Florida Law on use of deadly force?

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Thread: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

  1. #361
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    So he wasn't a suspect? So why was he being followed by Zimmerman and why did Zimmerman call the police?
    Because Zimmerman thought he looked suspicious. This did not make him a suspect in any crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    Zimmerman has no authority to arrest. Therefor he has NO reason to pursue.
    Two thing are wrong there.

    #1 Anyone can make a citizens arrest.
    #2 He was following/pursuing Martin, not attacking or trying to detain Martin, so no crime.

    As I have said 100 times over, Zimmerman as far as we know broke no law.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    When said person is not committing a forcible felony? I wonder how you would react if someone constantly followed you, and when you "bravely" confront them and ask them what they are doing and they say, "None of your buisness." how you would feel.
    He was not "constantly" following Martin. Nice try at hyperbole with a pinch of strawman. The rest of your statement makes almost no sense.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 04-10-12 at 07:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Because Zimmerman thought he looked suspicious. This did not make him a suspect in any crime.
    So he looked suspicious. Why?

    Two thing are wrong there.

    #1 Anyone can make a citizens arrest.
    #2 He was following/pursuing Martin, not attacking or trying to detain Martin, so no crime.

    As I have said 100 times over, Zimmerman as far as we know broke no law.
    1) As an EX COP (who hopefully actually had some field experience)...do you REALLY want to encourage people to make citizens arrests? How do you think that would end? More justifiable homicides? More people trying to act like police officers?

    2) He was pursuing someone who had EVERY right to be where he was. Treyvon...as far as we know...broke no law. After all how do we not know that he did not feel threatened? Did Zimmerman identify himself? If Treyvon and Martin scuffeled for a fully minute, why was the only evident damage of a fight the bullet wound to the chest? I do find that curious. Not damning. But curious. I also find it very odd that you can know for certain he didn't try to detain him.

    Again I ask you...if someone was stalking you, and they had not identified themselves, and then after losing them...how would you react if you bumped into them?

    It may not make sense to you...but Trayvon, by multiple accounts, asked Zimmerman why he was following him. What we know is that Zimmerman reached for a phone, and Trayvon jumped him. What would you do if you were in that situation? Someone is following you, and you have done NOTHING wrong, and then when you bump into them (because that is what it looks like happened), and you ask him why he is following you...and instead of giving you a straight answer he reaches for something? Huh? What? You being a concealed carry would likely reach for you own gun? This kid being unarmed and 17...could possibily have reaced out of self defense as well?

    I don't think you get that IF Trayvon was still alive he would actually be able to have another set of events, and he might actually have probably cause to claim self defense as well. But he can't. He was shot by a Kel Tech 9mm in the chest, by a man who should have known to stay in his vehicle.


    You clearly don't understand what the "Spirit of the Law" means. Just to clue you in...the intent of self defense laws does NOT involve someone seeking out criminals to invoke them. It is a last resort. As it should ALWAYS be.

    You being as "expert" as you claim to be should understand that the CCW community should NOT want Zimmerman to be treated with kid gloves, that the investigation was botched, and that the chances of backlash were VERY high.
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    So he looked suspicious. Why?



    1) As an EX COP (who hopefully actually had some field experience)...do you REALLY want to encourage people to make citizens arrests? How do you think that would end? More justifiable homicides? More people trying to act like police officers?

    2) He was pursuing someone who had EVERY right to be where he was. Treyvon...as far as we know...broke no law. After all how do we not know that he did not feel threatened? Did Zimmerman identify himself? If Treyvon and Martin scuffeled for a fully minute, why was the only evident damage of a fight the bullet wound to the chest? I do find that curious. Not damning. But curious. I also find it very odd that you can know for certain he didn't try to detain him.

    Again I ask you...if someone was stalking you, and they had not identified themselves, and then after losing them...how would you react if you bumped into them?

    It may not make sense to you...but Trayvon, by multiple accounts, asked Zimmerman why he was following him. What we know is that Zimmerman reached for a phone, and Trayvon jumped him. What would you do if you were in that situation? Someone is following you, and you have done NOTHING wrong, and then when you bump into them (because that is what it looks like happened), and you ask him why he is following you...and instead of giving you a straight answer he reaches for something? Huh? What? You being a concealed carry would likely reach for you own gun? This kid being unarmed and 17...could possibily have reaced out of self defense as well?

    I don't think you get that IF Trayvon was still alive he would actually be able to have another set of events, and he might actually have probably cause to claim self defense as well. But he can't. He was shot by a Kel Tech 9mm in the chest, by a man who should have known to stay in his vehicle.


    You clearly don't understand what the "Spirit of the Law" means. Just to clue you in...the intent of self defense laws does NOT involve someone seeking out criminals to invoke them. It is a last resort. As it should ALWAYS be.

    You being as "expert" as you claim to be should understand that the CCW community should NOT want Zimmerman to be treated with kid gloves, that the investigation was botched, and that the chances of backlash were VERY high.
    This whole debate (for lack of a better term) with you has been nothing but a series of hyperbole and strawman arguments. You completely ignore my responses and then two posts later ask the same question or try and make the same point worded differently. Then to top it off you post out and out lies. Please point out where I was I was an expert on CCW? I said I HAVE my CCW. Of course you will ignore that question as well. You are good at that if nothing else.

    We know Zimmerman handled the situation badly. This does not make him guilty of a crime. This does not ignore the spirit of the law.

    You keep using hyperbolic language to help reinforce your imbecilic arguments that rather than logic, are based on emotion.

    Trayvon Martin was not a kid...

    Attachment 67125691

    1. multiple LARGE tatoos, at age 17
    2. *burglary tools*, women’s jewelry & reports of multiple burglaries in his dad’s neighborhood
    3. reports he assaulted a bus driver
    4. long 10-day suspension (which is why he was staying with his dad across town)
    5. heavy use of gang lingo on the remnants of his mySpace page
    6. requests for him to peddle pot on his page

    His parents went out of their way to erase his Twitter page because of gang connections and his user name "NO_LIMIT_NIGGA" could it be image scrubbing? No he was just a perfect 12 year old, oh wait that picture is wrong.

    Now it is unfortunate the man got killed. It is unfortunate Zimmerman handled it badly. It is unfortunate morons try to portray Zimmerman as less than savory while Martin is some kind of angelic hero. In the end the truth is all that matters.

    I would make a list of all the strawman arguments do date, but it would take up an entire page.

    The funny part is I think you are trying desperately to recover from the stupidity of your original post. You know the one you never responded to and then flew into fallacy mode here: #102 http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1060365123
    Last edited by Black Dog; 04-11-12 at 07:24 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    So he looked suspicious. Why?



    1) As an EX COP (who hopefully actually had some field experience)...do you REALLY want to encourage people to make citizens arrests? How do you think that would end? More justifiable homicides? More people trying to act like police officers?

    2) He was pursuing someone who had EVERY right to be where he was. Treyvon...as far as we know...broke no law. After all how do we not know that he did not feel threatened? Did Zimmerman identify himself? If Treyvon and Martin scuffeled for a fully minute, why was the only evident damage of a fight the bullet wound to the chest? I do find that curious. Not damning. But curious. I also find it very odd that you can know for certain he didn't try to detain him.

    Again I ask you...if someone was stalking you, and they had not identified themselves, and then after losing them...how would you react if you bumped into them?

    It may not make sense to you...but Trayvon, by multiple accounts, asked Zimmerman why he was following him. What we know is that Zimmerman reached for a phone, and Trayvon jumped him. What would you do if you were in that situation? Someone is following you, and you have done NOTHING wrong, and then when you bump into them (because that is what it looks like happened), and you ask him why he is following you...and instead of giving you a straight answer he reaches for something? Huh? What? You being a concealed carry would likely reach for you own gun? This kid being unarmed and 17...could possibily have reaced out of self defense as well?

    I don't think you get that IF Trayvon was still alive he would actually be able to have another set of events, and he might actually have probably cause to claim self defense as well. But he can't. He was shot by a Kel Tech 9mm in the chest, by a man who should have known to stay in his vehicle.


    You clearly don't understand what the "Spirit of the Law" means. Just to clue you in...the intent of self defense laws does NOT involve someone seeking out criminals to invoke them. It is a last resort. As it should ALWAYS be.

    You being as "expert" as you claim to be should understand that the CCW community should NOT want Zimmerman to be treated with kid gloves, that the investigation was botched, and that the chances of backlash were VERY high.
    ^ Another person who claims that being totally apathetic towards others, perfectly self-centrix and a coward is now required by law and anyone who isn't like him is a criminal who should be beaten to death.

    People used to complain about how people would just watch assaults and crime happen and do nothing. Now many people such as in that message claim that not only should people never do anything for others, but it is illegal to. They believe it is both morally wrong and even allows a person to be killed if the person acts as anything but an apathetic coward.

    I have not been in "civilized" modern society for long and there are many good and superior aspects of it for certain. But the level of cowardice, fear and lack of giving a damn about anyone who doesn't directly benefit yourself is sometimes shocking. So many if not most are not people, they are sheeple. And many rage that everyone else must be too.

    Zimmerman not only did not nothing wrong, he was one of the few people of the neighborhood who gave a damn about others and wasn't just a complete coward.

  5. #365
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    This whole debate (for lack of a better term) with you has been nothing but a series of hyperbole and strawman arguments. You completely ignore my responses and then two posts later ask the same question or try and make the same point worded differently. Then to top it off you post out and out lies. Please point out where I was I was an expert on CCW? I said I HAVE my CCW. Of course you will ignore that question as well. You are good at that if nothing else.

    We know Zimmerman handled the situation badly. This does not make him guilty of a crime. This does not ignore the spirit of the law.

    You keep using hyperbolic language to help reinforce your imbecilic arguments that rather than logic, are based on emotion.

    Trayvon Martin was not a kid...

    Attachment 67125691

    1. multiple LARGE tatoos, at age 17
    2. *burglary tools*, womenís jewelry & reports of multiple burglaries in his dadís neighborhood
    3. reports he assaulted a bus driver
    4. long 10-day suspension (which is why he was staying with his dad across town)
    5. heavy use of gang lingo on the remnants of his mySpace page
    6. requests for him to peddle pot on his page

    His parents went out of their way to erase his Twitter page because of gang connections and his user name "NO_LIMIT_NIGGA" could it be image scrubbing? No he was just a perfect 12 year old, oh wait that picture is wrong.

    Now it is unfortunate the man got killed. It is unfortunate Zimmerman handled it badly. It is unfortunate morons try to portray Zimmerman as less than savory while Martin is some kind of angelic hero. In the end the truth is all that matters.

    I would make a list of all the strawman arguments do date, but it would take up an entire page.

    The funny part is I think you are trying desperately to recover from the stupidity of your original post. You know the one you never responded to and then flew into fallacy mode here: #102 http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1060365123
    He was a 17-year-old 6 foot tall juvenile delinquent who was killed in self defense who was engaged in felony aggravated assault at the time he was shot by his victim.

    Other than himself of course, who is most responsible are his rotten parents. Just the fact that they let him out wandering around while he was on his third explusion from school and the reasons for those demonstrates the irresponsibility of his parents. If there is any lesson to be learned, it is what happens to children raised by don't-give-a-damn parents like his.
    Last edited by joko104; 04-11-12 at 10:08 AM.

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    I think regardless of what will happen, Zimmerman will be punished in some manner and get at least 5 years of jailtime. It probably doesn't help that his lawyers dropped him after he started doing things against their advice to him.

    I keep hearing this kid was a thug etc but really he was just an average black kid that thought he was ganster, just like in KY, you got your average white kid who thinks he's Billy Bad-Ass. I wonder how you guys would judge a white kid from KY that got killed the same way, that had a bunch of rifles, knifes, rebel flags, tatoos on him, got in trouble at school, and listened to death metal? Because I probably described at least a million white kids.
    "Weíre going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. In theory, some of those loopholes were understandable, but in practice they sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying ten percent of his salary, and thatís crazy." -Reagan

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWOlin View Post
    I think regardless of what will happen, Zimmerman will be punished in some manner and get at least 5 years of jailtime. It probably doesn't help that his lawyers dropped him after he started doing things against their advice to him.
    It's a shame that the prosecutor is trying to find something to charge him with for purely political reasons. Not because he actually broke any law.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWOlin View Post
    I keep hearing this kid was a thug etc but really he was just an average black kid that thought he was ganster, just like in KY, you got your average white kid who thinks he's Billy Bad-Ass.
    Average 17 year old's don't get 10 day suspensions or assault bus drivers. They are also not suspected of burglaries. I am not trying to disparage the youth, but he does not sound average.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWOlin View Post
    I wonder how you guys would judge a white kid from KY that got killed the same way, that had a bunch of rifles, knifes, rebel flags, tatoos on him, got in trouble at school, and listened to death metal? Because I probably described at least a million white kids.
    Out of 300,000,000 people, that is not average, lol. Seriously, the white kid you described is not getting in trouble with the law by assaulting people or suspended from school. In all honesty if it was reversed and it was a black guy who shot a white kid it would be just as bad. A political **** storm either way.

    We are not judging Trayvon Martin, we are saying he was no angle and to portray him as such is a lie to increase ratings for networks and more power for the race baiters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  8. #368
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    He knows a hell of a lot more about that job than you or I do.

    He rejected the advice of the expert he called. That cannot be denied. And then he killed a kid as a result. And that cannot be denied either.

    If that guy had stayed in his car that night, we never would have heard of him and Martin would be alive today. And that cannot be denied either.
    A citizen is obligated to follow suspicious characters. You can't assume that Martin didn't deserve to be followed. We don't know if he was an innocent child or a potential killer, so we don't know if we are worse off with him dead. Judging by his over-reaction in assaulting Zimmerman, we are probably better off with Martin dead. Zimmerman saved his own life and the lives this punk would have eventually taken.
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    ^ Another person who claims that being totally apathetic towards others, perfectly self-centrix and a coward is now required by law and anyone who isn't like him is a criminal who should be beaten to death.

    People used to complain about how people would just watch assaults and crime happen and do nothing. Now many people such as in that message claim that not only should people never do anything for others, but it is illegal to. They believe it is both morally wrong and even allows a person to be killed if the person acts as anything but an apathetic coward.

    I have not been in "civilized" modern society for long and there are many good and superior aspects of it for certain. But the level of cowardice, fear and lack of giving a damn about anyone who doesn't directly benefit yourself is sometimes shocking. So many if not most are not people, they are sheeple. And many rage that everyone else must be too.

    Zimmerman not only did not nothing wrong, he was one of the few people of the neighborhood who gave a damn about others and wasn't just a complete coward.
    The title of the Charles Bronson movie, Death Wish should really refer to a suicidal society that coddles criminals, runs away from suspicious behavior instead of confronting it, and expects that having police is enough to control crime despite the fact that police rarely are in the right place at the right time to stop criminals.
    On the outside, trickling down on the insiders.
    We won't live free until the 1% live in fear.
    Hey, richboys! Imagine the boot of democracy stomping on your faces, forever.

  10. #370
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by PrometheusBound View Post
    A citizen is obligated to follow suspicious characters.
    According to whom? No law or even moral directive says a private citizen has to follow anyone for any reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by PrometheusBound View Post
    You can't assume that Martin didn't deserve to be followed. We don't know if he was an innocent child or a potential killer, so we don't know if we are worse off with him dead.
    It is true we can't assume, this does not make his death any less a tragedy no matter what may have happened later in his life.

    Quote Originally Posted by PrometheusBound View Post
    Judging by his over-reaction in assaulting Zimmerman, we are probably better off with Martin dead. Zimmerman saved his own life and the lives this punk would have eventually taken.
    This is such unadulterated bull**** I don't even know what to say. If I do say it, I will get hit by the mods.

    Lets just say this comment is without a doubt the most ignorant statement I have seen in awhile.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 04-11-12 at 02:55 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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