View Poll Results: Do you agree with Florida Law on use of deadly force?

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    48 71.64%
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Thread: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

  1. #291
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    being a college kid who has yet to really spend much time in the real world is hardly a good position to debate from. I am not emotionally involved. The more training one has, the less emotions play a role. And I have been training longer than you have been alive
    Yeah, you are right TurtleDude being alive for a long period of time gives you wisdom. It gives you something to draw on, to reflect on, kind of like Goshin's discussion about "M". I have yet to see you do any of this. So until you start using your wisdom in debates I would stop bringing the fact up that you don't.

    Secondly, if you HONESTLY think that being in that situation hasn't changed your judgement, therefore you would be emotionally involved, then I don't know what else I can say to you.
    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

  2. #292
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    From the facts we know publicly, Zimmerman did absolutely nothing wrong at all. What he did wwas care about others in his neighborhood. It was reasonable to call 911 to Martin nosing around the backs of people's homes. When Martin ran upon seeing Zimmerman calling the police, it was reasonable for him to try to see where Martin ran off to so he could tell the police. That is not wrong action, it is concerned citizen action.

    I understand many people belive that total apathy and indifference towards your neighbors is some sort of expectation and anything else is foolish, but I do not agree. I also understand many people believe that government/police are 100% of protection and that people must agreed we are 0%. I disagree with that too. Just because the Zimmerman-haters are apathetic and totally self centrix personalities and of cowardly natures does not mean everyone has to be like you.
    I totally agree with that I just think that, if this did go down this way, if he continued following after they said to stop, then I have no sympathy for Zimmerman. At that point it had fallen into police hands. But if he, at the point the officer said to stop following, started to head back or towards that rendezvous, which evidence does indicate, then he is an innocent victim and had every right to use lethal force, and that is even with my stance on free will. I think anyone who had a weapon would've used it if they were assaulted as Zimmerman seems to indicate; hell, I bet even some would've used it if they had started the fight. (Again, just speculation here. I am not taking a stance on this Zimmerman crap until, if he does, he goes to trial. If he doesn't, my view will always be skeptical.)
    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

  3. #293
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    We all can probably agree you will never be anyone's hero.
    Oh Snap!

    That is so sad and funny at the same time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  4. #294
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
    Isn't justice a form of bloodlust though?
    Yes, it is...very much so..
    The whole thing was set up on the Biblical "an eye for an eye".
    This is what we should be trying to progress from.
    Right now, there is little difference between the victim and the villain.
    This "progress"may take another thousand years. But today we must take the first step.

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    Yes, it is...very much so..
    The whole thing was set up on the Biblical "an eye for an eye".
    This is what we should be trying to progress from.
    Right now, there is little difference between the victim and the villain.
    This "progress"may take another thousand years. But today we must take the first step.
    A first step to what? I don't understand what we are supposed to do with criminals? If we don't lock them up, they remain a threat to society. If we do lock them up we are treating the crime and not the symptom. What would you suggest?

    I disagree on your victim and criminals comment. marked difference exist. Criminals have far more rights than any victim. Criminals have the right to a lawyer (for free if poor), face there accusers, a speedy trial and the list goes on. Please point out this list of rights that victims have? For the life of me I can't think of any.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  6. #296
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    We all can probably agree you will never be anyone's hero.
    You think that is a slight? You are DAMN right I am not gonna try to be a hero. Heros do stupid things and get innocent people killed. Instead of making intelligent decisions predicated upon reason, rationality, and just plain good judgement...those hero's go full speed ahead into a situation. They don't think. They act. They treat everyone as a threat because they look "suspicious." Rather than simply having a plan of action, they just have action.

    Your hero Zimmerman said that Treyvon was walking towards him. Clearly. Why did not he, from the safety of his vehicle, confront Treyvon and ask him what he was doing? Why did he EXIT his vehicle when police were on there way? See HEROS don't take into account backup. They seek glory. There is no glory in making a stupid decision and shooting some kid. Even if the kid was doing something stupid. This ENTIRE incident could have been avoided had Zimmerman had ANY quality judgement.

    I am not condemning Zimmerman or condemning Treyvon under law. That is the job of the Judge and Jury. This APPEARS to be a poorly handled case. But what I do know for 100% fact is that Zimmerman made a TERRIBLE call. My personal GUT feeling is that Zimmerman confronted Treyvon. My gut feeling also says that Treyvon...being 17 and not being the best at decision making...got scared. I think they BOTH acted out of fear. Zimmerman probably tried to detain the kid without his gun, and according to his story...Treyvon probably didn't like that especially because he was 17 and scared. Zimmerman pulled his gun and shot Treyvon. Legaly...maybe Treyvon was in the "wrong" but ethically there is NO way I can even CLOSE to...in good concious...say that way Zimmerman did was right or reasonable.

    Or am I the only person in the entire world who is thinking about the best interests of legal self defense? Because trying to be a police man and chase bad guys is not part of self defense.



    PS:

    True heros are those who act reasonable and rationally when the time calls for it. They act when they have no choice. Zimmerman had a choice.
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

  7. #297
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    What part of he "was patrolling for citizens watch" are you missing? He was exactly where he was supposed to be doing what he was supposed to be doing. That part has nothing at all to do with CCW.
    By pursuing some kid who probably wasn't doing anything wrong up to the point of the confrontation.

    would turn and say excuse me, can I help you? I would not attack the individual.
    Would you? What if the person started wildly accusing you of being up to no good? If you try to just walk away from the guy and he tries to physically detain you? Are you considering that Treyvon is only a 17 year old kid? Because before you hero worship Zimmerman or clear him of wrong doing...do you accept that he was made a terrible decision that led to a kid getting shot.

    He could make poor decisions all day and that would not give anyone the right to attack him, period.
    Zimmerman represents ALL of us when he carries. And we cannot accurately discuss whether or not Treyvon DID or DID NOT have a right to attack Zimmerman. If Zimmerman did physically try to detain Treyvon...what does the law say about that? In any case Zimmerman should not have pursued Treyvon.

    Nice jab, I am also an x cop. So save the douche bag comments.
    Thanks. It was wasn't it? I will save them when you do. You started those little digs. Not me.

    What the hell? I can't make heads nor tails of that incoherent babble?

    You should read that back to yourself.
    Made sense to me.

    You can "feel" all you want, this does not change the law. Zimmerman did as far as we know, nothing illegal at all.
    Neither did Treyvon. The ONE detail that we need...we don't know. How did Zimmerman and Treyvon end up in their little debaucle? Did Zimmerman make a terrible decision and overreact when he confronted Treyvon? Or did Treyvon just jump Zimmerman when he Zimmerman confronted him?

    Then he is guilty of being over zealous at best. Last time I looked none of what you mentioned is illegal at all, none. So again you can "feel" all you want, this does not mean anything according to the law.
    It was more than over zealous. It was stupidity. Gloryhounding? Maybe? Racist? Probably not. Paranoid? Maybe. Stupidity. Yes.

    That comment makes almost no sense
    If you don't understand that...then you don't understand the ethical delima that Zimmerman is in...and I am done. I will not even respond to the rest of the thread. The fact that you are not willing to overlook the perfect LEGAL definition, because of the truly ETHICAL problem that Zimmerman entered into. Zimmerman had a "right" to pursue Treyvon like he was some sort of cop. He got to play "hero" and stop a "criminal." The problem is that Treyvon was just a kid. Sure he is a "6'2 man" but at heart do you think he was anything more than a scared friggin kid? Hell he could have been a stupid kid, but I am willing to bet he was scared.

    As an Ex-cop do you REALLY lack the ability and reason to understand that ethical line that Zimmerman CLEARLY crossed?
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

  8. #298
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    We don't know all of the facts of this case, and so any observations we're making are based on speculation.

    So, my speculation is that it is highly unlikely that Martin attacked Zimmerman in an unprovoked attack. It could have come down that way, of course, but it just doesn't seem plausible.

    Does it?
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Or the actual Bonnie and Clyde. The movie made them to be pretty cool people, didn't it?
    So much so that some reporter, worried about such glorification of self-indulgent scum, re-printed interviews with their victims and how tragically B&C had ruined their lives.
    This degenerate theme was introduced in 1967, near the beginning of our decadence.
    On the outside, trickling down on the insiders.
    We won't live free until the 1% live in fear.
    Hey, richboys! Imagine the boot of democracy stomping on your faces, forever.

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    I lust over the blood of the carrot! Yank that carrot, spill it's orange blood. I must eat! Arggg.....
    Cwazy Wabbit!
    On the outside, trickling down on the insiders.
    We won't live free until the 1% live in fear.
    Hey, richboys! Imagine the boot of democracy stomping on your faces, forever.

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