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Thread: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

  1. #281
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    In any case...Zimmerman made some STUPID decisions...and I will just provide a quote instead of giving you every one I can think of:



    If we want to talk about stupidity...Zimmerman was stupid. End of story. I learned a LONG time ago not to get out of the vehicle in a ghetto, let alone follow a suspicious character. If I want to do that...AGAIN...I will GET A BADGE AND DO IT THE RIGHT WAY.

    Thanks for...well...nothing.
    Zimmerman wasn't in a ghetto.
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
    So lawyers are all knowing because of their experience?

    BTW, shooting someone in self defense only makes you emotionally involved...
    being a college kid who has yet to really spend much time in the real world is hardly a good position to debate from. I am not emotionally involved. The more training one has, the less emotions play a role. And I have been training longer than you have been alive

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    I lust over the blood of the carrot! Yank that carrot, spill it's orange blood. I must eat! Arggg.....

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    Sure why not. I only keep the Florida concealed documentation in my truck in an envelope, as well as copies in my apartment, backpack, and shooting bag. At this rate I just won't respond to you because you seem to only want attention.
    And yet you know nothing about the law. Go figure.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    In any case...Zimmerman made some STUPID decisions...and I will just provide a quote instead of giving you every one I can think of:
    #1 It is not illegal to follow anyone if there is no order of restraint.
    #2 If Zimmer was attacked whether he was returning to his car or not, he had every right to defend himself under the law.
    #3 If Zimmer was actually guilty of anything, he would have been arrested by now.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    If we want to talk about stupidity...Zimmerman was stupid. End of story. I learned a LONG time ago not to get out of the vehicle in a ghetto, let alone follow a suspicious character. If I want to do that...AGAIN...I will GET A BADGE AND DO IT THE RIGHT WAY.
    He was part of the citizen's watch. He was well within his rights, even if not the best decision. He was also in his own neighborhood and not the ghetto.

    As far as Zimmer making a "stupid" decision, to be honest we don't have all the facts. We don't know what actually happened. You are stating things as "FACTS" when again you have no clue what actually happened. Neither do I, but I know the law. Comes with being an X LEO.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    Thanks for...well...nothing.
    It's OK, I enjoyed pointing out the fact you don't know anything about the law or subject.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 04-06-12 at 11:47 PM.
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  5. #285
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Let's take a DEEPER look at the case facts:

    Treyvon and Zimmerman are close enough in size for there to be a legit scuffel.

    Treyvon WAS EXACTLY where he belonged. He was NOT out of place...at 7:15PM.

    Zimmerman's father is NOT involved.

    Now. Let's Listen to Zimmerman's phone call in transcript form:

    George Zimmerman Police Call

    Something I will note:

    "These assholes they always get away."

    Anyway.

    The big Note:

    "Are you following him?"

    "Yea."

    "We don't need you to do that."

    Does the dispatcher have legal authority? No. And I am by NO means saying they should have it, or they are all knowing. I AM going to question...as someone who VERY MUCH does NOT want to be represented poorly by someone with bad decision making...WHY did Zimmerman leave his vehicle? That is a violation of every ounce of self-defense knowledge in my book. You do NOT go from a safe location to an unsafe location. Not to mention...LEGALLY speaking I feel that Zimmerman made a poor decision that COULD be seen as a violation OF:

    Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

    Because he LEFT his vehicle. He put himself into a dangerous situation like an idiot. Of course that would NOT be my first choice of laws to go by. But I REALLY question his motive for leaving the vehicle.

    The part I REALLY would like for us to direct our attention at is:

    Lawful Self-Defense - Weapons - Division of Licensing, FDACS

    This documentation is issue with ALL licenses.

    Q. What if I see a crime being committed?

    A. A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman. But, as stated earlier, deadly force is justified if you are trying to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. The use of deadly force must be absolutely necessary to prevent the crime. Also, if the criminal runs away, you cannot use deadly force to stop him, because you would no longer be "preventing" a crime. If use of deadly force is not necessary, or you use deadly force after the crime has stopped, you could be convicted of manslaughter.
    Does ANYONE feel that he made good decisions according to this part of the State issued warning about concealeced carry? I feel he made a poor decision at THIS point:

    Only you can provide the wisdom, restraint, and good judgment that the law demands of those who possess the ability to take another human life.
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  6. #286
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post

    #1 It is not illegal to follow anyone if there is no order of restraint..
    Just because you support CCW does NOT mean you must unquestionably accept that it is the RIGHT decision to do this. Did he make the RIGHT decision in doing so? I expect an answer here.

    How would YOU react if you were where YOU belong (a friend's neighborhood) and someone followed you in a vehicle? And then got out of said vehicle and followed you more?

    #2 If Zimmer was attacked whether he was returning to his car or not, he had every right to defend himself under the law.
    That is NOT up for debate. Florida law CLEARLY states that. I question if he was attacked. ESPECIALLY because of his poor decisions.

    3 If Zimmer was actually guilty of anything, he would have been arrested by now.
    As a "Security proffessional" aka mall cop...do you ACTUALLY believe that EVERY bad guy gets arrested? If you are as pro-CCW and pro-gun law as you act...then you should understand the reverse that not everyone that is arrested is always guilty (hence our laws for those of us who excersise restraint when carrying) of a crime. Do you even understand how long the Florida court proccess is?

    I ALSO feel that...while you clearly do not think it should make light...the background of BOTH parties is relevant in this instance. Zimmerman does NOT have a history of quality decision making, and given his decision to get out of a vehicle...I REALLY feel that is the truth.'

    He was part of the citizen's watch.
    He was the only volunteer of an unregistered neighborhood watch. That is a VERY important thing to leave out. Or do I mean convienient? Not to mention pursuit of a criminal is NOT within the jursidiction of neighborhood watch. I think that is...well POLICE JURISDICTION. Oh...and did I mention that it is an important note in Citizen Watch/Neighborhood watch to observe from a safe location. How does leaving your vehicle sound?


    He was well within his rights, even if not the best decision.
    "The right to swing my fist ends at another man's nose." Does it not even appear as a BLIP on your radar that, despite it being his right, that his BAD decision brings up a questionable motive? Not to MENTION that it IS a bad decision. To say that it is "not the best decision" makes me question the fact that you are a "security proffesional?" It was a TERRIBLE decision.

    Would YOU pursue someone that "looked suspicious" when you are on the phone with police and the person is not directly commiting a forcible felony? I caution you in your answer. I will be all over you like white on rice with your reply. As will ANY jury or lawyer.

    He was also in his own neighborhood and not the ghetto.
    So he was in a GATED community huh? And he was out following a kid rather than allowing the police to do that? That doesn't ring bells? How would you, as a "security proffesional" react? How about as an "being an X LEO?"

    It's OK, I enjoyed pointing out the fact you don't know anything about the law or subject.
    1) Just because you are an X LEO does not mean you know the law. I know plenty of cops who don't know the law, and I know plenty of cops who violate the law. Being a cop does NOT make you a proffesional lawyer. You have about as much knowledge with law as Adam(being any random person interested in the law) in this thread. There is plenty of evidence of Cops arresting legal carriers for no reason to prove that.

    2) What happens when 1 idiot makes stupid decisions and you don't make an example of his idiocy? Do you NOT understand the rammifications of armchair QBing Zimmerman? I am the FIRST to defend LEO and those who act out of self defense, but the ONE thing I am equally as quick to do is find the OBVIOUS HOLES in judgement and use those to EDUCATE our wannabe heros who think that just because they have a license, that they are a cop. Do you know what happens to people who do that? They end up in Zimmerman's shoes. Or worse.
    Last edited by blackjack50; 04-07-12 at 12:49 AM.
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    Just because you support CCW does NOT mean you must unquestionably accept that it is the RIGHT decision to do this. Did he make the RIGHT decision in doing so? I expect an answer here.
    What part of he "was patrolling for citizens watch" are you missing? He was exactly where he was supposed to be doing what he was supposed to be doing. That part has nothing at all to do with CCW.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    How would YOU react if you were where YOU belong (a friend's neighborhood) and someone followed you in a vehicle? And then got out of said vehicle and followed you more?
    I would turn and say excuse me, can I help you? I would not attack the individual.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    That is NOT up for debate. Florida law CLEARLY states that. I question if he was attacked. ESPECIALLY because of his poor decisions.
    He could make poor decisions all day and that would not give anyone the right to attack him, period.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    As a "Security proffessional" aka mall cop
    Nice jab, I am also an x cop. So save the douche bag comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    ...do you ACTUALLY believe that EVERY bad guy gets arrested? If you are as pro-CCW and pro-gun law as you act...then you should understand the reverse that not everyone that is arrested is always guilty (hence our laws for those of us who excersise restraint when carrying) of a crime. Do you even understand how long the Florida court proccess is?
    What the hell? I can't make heads nor tails of that incoherent babble?

    You should read that back to yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    I ALSO feel that...while you clearly do not think it should make light...the background of BOTH parties is relevant in this instance. Zimmerman does NOT have a history of quality decision making, and given his decision to get out of a vehicle...I REALLY feel that is the truth.'
    You can "feel" all you want, this does not change the law. Zimmerman did as far as we know, nothing illegal at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    He was the only volunteer of an unregistered neighborhood watch. That is a VERY important thing to leave out. Or do I mean convienient? Not to mention pursuit of a criminal is NOT within the jursidiction of neighborhood watch. I think that is...well POLICE JURISDICTION. Oh...and did I mention that it is an important note in Citizen Watch/Neighborhood watch to observe from a safe location. How does leaving your vehicle sound?
    Then he is guilty of being over zealous at best. Last time I looked none of what you mentioned is illegal at all, none. So again you can "feel" all you want, this does not mean anything according to the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    "The right to swing my fist ends at another man's nose." Does it not even appear as a BLIP on your radar that, despite it being his right, that his BAD decision brings up a questionable motive? Not to MENTION that it IS a bad decision. To say that it is "not the best decision" makes me question the fact that you are a "security proffesional?" It was a TERRIBLE decision.
    That comment makes almost no sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    Would YOU pursue someone that "looked suspicious" when you are on the phone with police and the person is not directly commiting a forcible felony? I caution you in your answer. I will be all over you like white on rice with your reply. As will ANY jury or lawyer.
    Oh please, like I am worried about you being all over anything. I have already shown multiple times how clueless you are on this subject. So please just stop with the false bravado, it's embarrassing.

    And yes I probably would. I would be well within my rights to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    So he was in a GATED community huh?
    Yes and his own neighborhood as well. He had every right to be there.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    And he was out following a kid rather than allowing the police to do that?
    He was following a 6'2" man as far as he knew. Martin was 17, far from being a kid. That's OK though you can portray it incorrectly all you like.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    That doesn't ring bells? How would you, as a "security proffesional" react? How about as an "being an X LEO?"
    I am not Zimmerman, I am a trained professional so it should be obvious I would handle it differently. Why ask such a stupid question?

    The only thing ringing here is my head from your ill informed statements.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    Yea clearly as an X-LEO who knows the law...you really understand good decision making, and what happens when 1 idiot makes stupid decisions and you don't make an example of his idiocy.
    If no law is broken, no matter how bad any decision you can't throw them in prison or take away rights. You can't do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    Do you NOT understand the rammifications of armchair QBing Zimmerman?
    I am the first to understand that our rights are to important to take punitive damages out on people for bad decisions who have not broken the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    I am the FIRST to defend LEO and those who act out of self defense, but the ONE thing I am equally as quick to do is find the OBVIOUS HOLES in judgement and use those to EDUCATE our wannabe heros who think that just because they have a license, that they are a cop.
    Then learning how the law works and knowing when to apply those laws equally and justly will go a long way in making you look informed rather than the reverse.

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    Do you know what happens to people who do that? They end up in Zimmerman's shoes. Or worse.
    Maybe, maybe not. You are not the judge or jury, let the law do it's job without emotion feelings clouding your judgement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    From the facts we know publicly, Zimmerman did absolutely nothing wrong at all. What he did wwas care about others in his neighborhood. It was reasonable to call 911 to Martin nosing around the backs of people's homes. When Martin ran upon seeing Zimmerman calling the police, it was reasonable for him to try to see where Martin ran off to so he could tell the police. That is not wrong action, it is concerned citizen action.

    I understand many people belive that total apathy and indifference towards your neighbors is some sort of expectation and anything else is foolish, but I do not agree. I also understand many people believe that government/police are 100% of protection and that people must agreed we are 0%. I disagree with that too. Just because the Zimmerman-haters are apathetic and totally self centrix personalities and of cowardly natures does not mean everyone has to be like you.

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    Just because you support CCW does NOT mean you must unquestionably accept that it is the RIGHT decision to do this. Did he make the RIGHT decision in doing so? I expect an answer here.

    How would YOU react if you were where YOU belong (a friend's neighborhood) and someone followed you in a vehicle? And then got out of said vehicle and followed you more?



    That is NOT up for debate. Florida law CLEARLY states that. I question if he was attacked. ESPECIALLY because of his poor decisions.



    As a "Security proffessional" aka mall cop...do you ACTUALLY believe that EVERY bad guy gets arrested? If you are as pro-CCW and pro-gun law as you act...then you should understand the reverse that not everyone that is arrested is always guilty (hence our laws for those of us who excersise restraint when carrying) of a crime. Do you even understand how long the Florida court proccess is?

    I ALSO feel that...while you clearly do not think it should make light...the background of BOTH parties is relevant in this instance. Zimmerman does NOT have a history of quality decision making, and given his decision to get out of a vehicle...I REALLY feel that is the truth.'



    He was the only volunteer of an unregistered neighborhood watch. That is a VERY important thing to leave out. Or do I mean convienient? Not to mention pursuit of a criminal is NOT within the jursidiction of neighborhood watch. I think that is...well POLICE JURISDICTION. Oh...and did I mention that it is an important note in Citizen Watch/Neighborhood watch to observe from a safe location. How does leaving your vehicle sound?




    "The right to swing my fist ends at another man's nose." Does it not even appear as a BLIP on your radar that, despite it being his right, that his BAD decision brings up a questionable motive? Not to MENTION that it IS a bad decision. To say that it is "not the best decision" makes me question the fact that you are a "security proffesional?" It was a TERRIBLE decision.

    Would YOU pursue someone that "looked suspicious" when you are on the phone with police and the person is not directly commiting a forcible felony? I caution you in your answer. I will be all over you like white on rice with your reply. As will ANY jury or lawyer.



    So he was in a GATED community huh? And he was out following a kid rather than allowing the police to do that? That doesn't ring bells? How would you, as a "security proffesional" react? How about as an "being an X LEO?"



    1) Just because you are an X LEO does not mean you know the law. I know plenty of cops who don't know the law, and I know plenty of cops who violate the law. Being a cop does NOT make you a proffesional lawyer. You have about as much knowledge with law as Adam(being any random person interested in the law) in this thread. There is plenty of evidence of Cops arresting legal carriers for no reason to prove that.

    2) What happens when 1 idiot makes stupid decisions and you don't make an example of his idiocy? Do you NOT understand the rammifications of armchair QBing Zimmerman? I am the FIRST to defend LEO and those who act out of self defense, but the ONE thing I am equally as quick to do is find the OBVIOUS HOLES in judgement and use those to EDUCATE our wannabe heros who think that just because they have a license, that they are a cop. Do you know what happens to people who do that? They end up in Zimmerman's shoes. Or worse.

    We all can probably agree you will never be anyone's hero.
    Last edited by joko104; 04-07-12 at 07:31 AM.

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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    From the facts we know publicly, Zimmerman did absolutely nothing wrong at all. What he did wwas care about others in his neighborhood. It was reasonable to call 911 to Martin nosing around the backs of people's homes. When Martin ran upon seeing Zimmerman calling the police, it was reasonable for him to try to see where Martin ran off to so he could tell the police. That is not wrong action, it is concerned citizen action.

    I understand many people belive that total apathy and indifference towards your neighbors is some sort of expectation and anything else is foolish, but I do not agree. I also understand many people believe that government/police are 100% of protection and that people must agreed we are 0%. I disagree with that too. Just because the Zimmerman-haters are apathetic and totally self centrix personalities and of cowardly natures does not mean everyone has to be like you.
    I have to disagree with your first statement. That Zimmerman did nothing wrong is far from Fact. No one knows yet What started the final altercation.

    Did Zimmerman approach Martin with his weapon out? Did Zimmerman attack Martin? Did Martin at Jack Zimmerman? From behind? No one really knows.

    You make solid points with the rest of your post, but that statement is far from true.
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