View Poll Results: Do you agree with Florida Law on use of deadly force?

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  • Agree

    48 71.64%
  • Disagree

    16 23.88%
  • I oppose the Second Amendment completely

    2 2.99%
  • There should be no rule of law

    1 1.49%
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Thread: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

  1. #271
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I absolutely agree. I have been saying from the beginning we don't have enough facts to decide anything.

    Stonewall on the other hand gives wrong information about the laws and situation and has no idea what he is talking either way as I have pointed out. And yet he is ready to have Zimmers rights taken away based on his own ignorance and misunderstanding of law etc.
    I was in his shoes on another thread...
    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

  2. #272
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
    Okay, so lets start with the small heinous crime. Were their other factors when they decided to try pot for the first time? Were they being influenced by any other outside behavior? While I agree that they shouldn't of started off with arson/kidnapping/murder, where did this idea come from? I mean how maddening would it be if you just suddenly got the brilliant idea to call up your friend and tell him about a home intrusion you would want to do. This, I think, paints more of a picture that our thoughts/actions are random and should be surprising even to us.

    Well, I can answer that.

    Let's start with a person I grew up w/ and know very well, I'll call him M.

    M had been raised in a middle-class Christian home to very conventional parents and traditional values and practices. In his early years he was a gentle child and liked to read.

    At the age of 13, M started going to a Jr High School that was literally awash in drugs and violence (the same one I went to). His parents were unaware how bad it was, and had trouble believing it even when told. Over the next three years M became hardened to violence but struggled with depression and anger. He began to practice violence on others somewhat indiscriminately... anyone who annoyed him sufficiently was liable to be beaten viciously. He started carrying weapons, knives and guns. His view of the world changed and he began to see it as a vile place where the strong took and the weak suffered.

    He started doing drugs.

    When he was 16 his classmates might have voted him "most likely to spend the majority of his life in prison". He was barely sane. His career ambitions included assassin for either the Mafia or the CIA. He studied the art of stealthy murder like it was a science. He began to commit petty theft; his new circle of friends began to disappear into the Juvenile system for armed robbery and drug dealing.

    Then M met a nice girl and fell in love. For a couple of years he seemed to be doing better; he quit doing drugs and mostly stayed out of trouble, and began to consider career options that didn't involve homicide.

    By the time he was 20 the girl left him for someone more stable, and he relapsed. He went back to drugs and booze and made elaborate plans to involve himself in gambling rackets and hook up with the Mob.

    He says that through all of this his conscience nagged him. He'd been brought up better; he knew better; he didn't like himself very much.

    Struggling to determine who he was, M got a regular job and started back going to church, occasionally. One day, he says, he had an ephiphany and saw his life, on its current course, as the empty and barren thing that it was, bringing misery to self and others and ending in destruction. He repented and accepted Jesus as his Lord, turned his back on the darkness and vowed to live for God and do good hereafter.

    That was something over twenty years ago. To my knowlege, M has been sober and drug free, and remained a productive and law-abiding citizen in all the years since.

    Had it been otherwise, he probably would have made the news one day, and not in a good way either.


    This is one example I could give, of dozens and dozens. Many of the others lack a happy ending.

    In these many anecdotes I could expound on, I see intellectual processes and choices made, not will-less determinism. I see gradual progression followed by sharp upturns or downturns as critical decision points are reached, not random actions dictated by the subconscious.
    Last edited by Goshin; 04-07-12 at 10:50 AM.

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  3. #273
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
    I was in his shoes on another thread...
    Not really the same. You did not try to present yourself as some kind of expert...

    As a Resident of the State of Florida for my ENTIRE life, a Gun Owner, A Concealed Weapon Permit Owner, and as a Citizen of the United States I 100% agree with the Florida law.

    You also made efforts to correct yourself when it was pointed out. He has ignored it completely.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  4. #274
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Well, I can answer that.

    Let's start with a person I grew up and know very well, I'll call him M.

    M had been raised in a middle-class Christian home to very conventional parents and traditional values and practices. In his early years he was a gentle child and liked to read.

    At the age of 13, M started going to a Jr High School that was literally awash in drugs and violence (the same one I went to). His parents were unaware how bad it was, and had trouble believing it even when told. Over the next three years M became hardened to violence but struggled with depression and anger. He began to practice violence on others somewhat indiscriminately... anyone who annoyed him sufficiently was liable to be beaten viciously. He started carrying weapons, knives and guns. His view of the world changed and he began to see it as a vile place where the strong took and the weak suffered.

    He started doing drugs.

    When he was 16 his classmates might have voted him "most likely to spend the majority of his life in prison". He was barely sane. His career ambitions included assassin for either the Mafia or the CIA. He studied the art of stealthy murder like it was a science. He began to commit petty theft; his new circle of friends began to disappear into the Juvenile system for armed robbery and drug dealing.

    Then M met a nice girl and fell in love. For a couple of years he seemed to be doing better; he quit doing drugs and mostly stayed out of trouble, and began to consider career options that didn't involve homicide.

    By the time he was 20 the girl left him for someone more stable, and he relapsed. He went back to drugs and booze and made elaborate plans to involve himself in gambling rackets and hook up with the Mob.

    He says that through all of this his conscience nagged him. He'd been brought up better; he knew better; he didn't like himself very much.

    Struggling to determine who he was, M got a regular job and started back going to church, occasionally. One day, he says, he had an ephiphany and saw his life, on its current course, as the empty and barren thing that it was, bringing misery to self and others and ending in destruction. He repented and accepted Jesus as his Lord, turned his back on the darkness and vowed to live for God and do good hereafter.

    That was something over twenty years ago. To my knowlege, M has been sober and drug free, and remained a productive and law-abiding citizen in all the years since.

    Had it been otherwise, he probably would have made the news one day, and not in a good way either.


    This is one example I could give, of dozens and dozens. Many of the others lack a happy ending.

    In these many anecdotes I could expound on, I see intellectual processes and choices made, not will-less determinism. I see gradual progression followed by sharp upturns or downturns as critical decision points are reached, not random actions dictated by the subconscious.
    I'm sorry if you had to witness that Goshin. It must be painful to witness anyone doing that.

    Well, I see it as he had a conflict of interest and luckily the one that was his salvation won. Like I said, maybe their is room for free will, but a lot of it has to be involved with the lack of it.
    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

  5. #275
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
    Isn't justice a form of bloodlust though?
    No. Justice is the application of one force against another equal force. It's a balancing of the scales, or karma, or whatever you wish to call equalizing the balance of events. Since you seem to think you are a philosopher, this would be a good question for you to pose to yourself.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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  6. #276
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    No. Justice is the application of one force against another equal force. It's a balancing of the scales, or karma, or whatever you wish to call equalizing the balance of events. Since you seem to think you are a philosopher, this would be a good question for you to pose to yourself.
    I don't think of myself as a philosopher, and actually that question had never crossed my mind until you asked it. I have retracted that statement though.
    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

  7. #277
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    You have time to post this but you still have not addressed this...http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1060367847

    I will take your silence as admitting you had no idea of what you were talking about..
    Now Blackdog....I know that you have a great song about you...but the world doesn't revolve around your posts. I don't really pay that close of attention and I address the posts that strike me. So enjoy this parody of our situation:

    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

  8. #278
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    Now Blackdog....I know that you have a great song about you...but the world doesn't revolve around your posts. I don't really pay that close of attention and I address the posts that strike me. So enjoy this parody of our situation:
    You made your point:

    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

  9. #279
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    Now Blackdog....I know that you have a great song about you...but the world doesn't revolve around your posts. I don't really pay that close of attention and I address the posts that strike me. So enjoy this parody of our situation:

    So in other words...

    You don't know anything about the subject matter and speak out of your ass.

    No problem, thanks for playing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
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  10. #280
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    So in other words...

    You don't know anything about the subject matter and speak out of your ass.

    No problem, thanks for playing.
    Sure why not. I only keep the Florida concealed documentation in my truck in an envelope, as well as copies in my apartment, backpack, and shooting bag. At this rate I just won't respond to you because you seem to only want attention.

    In any case...Zimmerman made some STUPID decisions...and I will just provide a quote instead of giving you every one I can think of:

    Zimmerman should have never followed Martin. He should have backed off, stayed in his car, and waited for the police to show up. It is not a crime to walk slowly in the rain, wearing a hoodie, munching on Skittles, and talking on a cell phone. The police could have and likely would have sorted this out, once they arrived. “Stand Your Ground” is not designed to protect someone who follows another person and instigates a conflict, because he thought he was within his rights as a self-appointed neighborhood watchman. This is especially true if a police dispatcher tells you, you do not need to follow a suspect.
    If we want to talk about stupidity...Zimmerman was stupid. End of story. I learned a LONG time ago not to get out of the vehicle in a ghetto, let alone follow a suspicious character. If I want to do that...AGAIN...I will GET A BADGE AND DO IT THE RIGHT WAY.

    Thanks for...well...nothing.
    Last edited by blackjack50; 04-06-12 at 11:21 PM.
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

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