View Poll Results: Do you agree with Florida Law on use of deadly force?

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Thread: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

  1. #251
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Jryan's philosophy meets Mad Max


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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    BTW, I would like to start out by saying I appreciate your patience joko. I know it is frustrating when someone doesn't "get" what you are saying. I'm in your same boat though, just on the other side. Thank you for leaving out emotional responses. I try to do the same for you. Anyways...

    I do understand what you are saying, though you think I don't. I just completely disagree.
    I think that we are on the same page. I understand what you are saying too, it is just that I disagree completely also, and by that understand what you are saying completely, I mean that in no disrespectful way.

    Have you noticed that you NEVER mention victims? Never. Why?
    I do care for the victim, and I feel that luck was not on their side that day. This though, I think goes without saying.

    I look at from the victim's perspective. Why does the rapists rotten past allow mitigating what he did to her? She didn't make that past. What possible relevance is that to her? Nor is there any green-light that will flash on when the rapist is "cured," so the question is what right is there to - based upon guessing his subconscious being "fixed" - to expose more potential victims to him?
    That is why it is unlawful for the person to do his crime. That is the logic behind the reason we made these laws in the first place because fairness is ultimately our objective goal because fairness represents a maximized well being in a legal sense.

    For your last question, no, we don't expose more victims to this monster. That is why, and I assume we are talking about rape still, we would remove said individual from society because we cannot allow him to run amuck.

    To the extent a person can be fixed, how is the fixing accomplished? How is bad behavior prevented? One way is fear of what will happen as a result.
    Not trying to strawman your argument here, but I think this needs to be addressed on my part. I believe that people that commit these crimes are sick, diseased people that need mental help. They never understood right and wrong for the out because their parents were crack heads (substitute any other thing that a druggie/criminal might find more important than their kids here). I think through philosophy they can see their rights and their wrongs. For instance, in the case with Hayes' partner, later he learned of the murder of the children and has since attempted suicide and feels really bad about what he did to that family. Does this make him a better person than he is? Of course. Do I feel he has earned his right to re-enter society. I don't know because what if he is lying. That is a game of Russian rolet that with some criminals I'm not willing to bet.

    I've addressed the problem of MANY bad behavior men towards women. Men increasingly harassing a woman for example. Without exception, given my reputation and known/proven abilities, if I told that man "you cut that s...t out or I'm going to break your collar bone" he would correct his behavior. And because of I and a few other men like me, the women were and felt safe. And no one, including him, was hurt. His behavior accordingly modified. If I instead approached saying, "it seems something is troubling you inside you, what is it?" I'd end up having to break his collar bone or worse to prevent him from continuing to try to hurt me figuring I'm just a wimp-ass.
    Right, but the problem here is that in the moment the assailant isn't thinking about the consequences. He is thinking about his reward. Although I must admit, I have no idea what a man like Hayes' partner was thinking when he committed those actions, and I can speculate that you don't either, but we do know that he never thought to release those children.

    It was FEAR that modified men's behavior away from misconduct they wished to do subconsciously. But, you know, as far as I'm concerned, they can violently rape that woman inside his mind and fantasy all he cares to. Think any damn thing he wants. I only cared what he does, not how he thinks or feels.
    Well sort of, intention has everything to do with a subject. If my intention in a defense situation, like the ones this law is about, is to save someone's innocent life by taking a soon to be guilty man's, then the difference between the two is the innocent was intending innocence, they never intended to be violent. The shooter is intending to cause harm and chaos, albeit subconsciously or consciously.

    Is it FEAR or state-of-mind that prevents crime? Do kids not shoplift because of fear of getting caught? Or because they feel good about themselves? I think it is fear of getting caught. And I think it need be absolutely known that if a person ends up in court for a crime they can't use self-pity of their past as a defense.
    I think that a kid sitting at home doesn't shop lift because they don't want to get in trouble. What about a kid that is intending to shoplift, in the heat of the moment I doubt the thought of what is to come has entered his mind. Although, developmentally children do not have this amount of logic so I doubt any of this enters a shoplifting child's mind.

    A limitation on me in terms of violence against "evil men" has always been my sense of knowing where the line-of-law is (sic). I might push it to the max but I wouldn't just disregard it. I didn't beat some of those men to death because I felt good about myself. It is because I did not want to go to prison. I could defend within law breaking their bones and dislocating joints pushing "defensing others" or myself to the max, but not beating the person to death. So I didn't. Doesn't mean I didn't want to or even didn't believe doing so was the right thing to do.
    Right, the problem is, is that in hindsight you are justifying your cause, but in the moment, I highly doubt any thoughts of prison entered into your conscious thought; rather, your fight or flight response kicked in and told you to stop. Did it, in the moment that is, ever "occur to you" that what you were doing would send you to prison if you continued, of course not. Your conscious thought was more devoted to defending someone or dodging that next punch.

    I would like to add here though I think we have the same "intentions" as far as morals go. Neither of us wants evil to prevail in our world, but I think that we look at it differently and mine poses a limitation on that law. Like I said, the absence of free will doesn't change much about how we view the world, hell the free will theory even has room for the soul. I can't directly communicate with my soul, it is located in a subconscious area of my brain. Does this mean that it doesn't exist? Of course not.

    (Sorry for taking so long to respond, didn't see the post until like an hour or two later)
    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

  3. #253
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post


    Haven't seen you around for a while, maybe different threads.
    I see hear alot of people do that, mostly women it seems. Which of them was more unfairly treated in the past, ie pity-contests. Sometimes it seems the whole country in involved it like the new national pasttime. Everyone psycho-analyzing themselves. Every problem someone else's fault.
    Terrible **** happens to everyone. As soon as you start making societal decisions out of pity instead of in rational pursuit of clear quantifiable objectives, your system is going to start falling apart.

    Of course, you could say the same thing about making decisions out of bloodlust, too.

  4. #254
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWOlin View Post
    So let me just see if I get you right, a 14 year old kid comes up to you while your at a school with a concealed weapon because I dunno...your awesome? .
    What is a 14 year old kid doing on a college campus?

    The kid has a bat and instead of I dunno grabbing a chair or something and pushing him away or rushing him, you shoot him in the face because this kid -could- be a black belt.
    Why does this kid have a baseball bat on a college campus?

    And why would I shoot him unless he starts swinging it at me and I truly feel threatened?

    Articles about Baseball Bat - CNN

    I'm not really afraid of a baseball bat. Really guns either. Knives scare the **** out of me though. Something tells me by the way you talked about how to react to a baseball bat that you have no idea how to handle stick/bat defense. You know that you have 2 options right? Get inside the barrel of the bat (the deadliest part of the swing because it moves the fastest), or stay outside the range. And you clearly grew up in a suburb or something. We follow a different code where I grew up (there was MS13, Crips, and a whole host of other gangs, including the white supremacist jackasses): you can fight fair or you can win. I choose to win.

    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

  5. #255
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    too much college courses, not enough real life reality
    Right, to know the application of things you must know the theories TurtleDude.

    As a lawyer I thought you would know though that being emotionally involved changes disables a person from being a witness, a juror, a clergy, or a lawyer (Although not sure about the last two). If you don't think free will has anything to do with the subject at hand then I suggest you reread my points on this thread. I say that the law should be amended to dictate that if someone is being raped, and no one is in danger of being physically/mentally altered (The woman is already mentally/physically altered seeing as how she is already raped), then the person with the gun pointing at the bad guy should say, "Stop it!", if they don't or they make any move to run/hurt someone, shoot... Most would say the monster deserves to be shot anyways. That is why I'm arguing that sense free will does not exist, we cannot punish these people because they are in a sense, "A victim of society".
    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

  6. #256
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    Terrible **** happens to everyone. As soon as you start making societal decisions out of pity instead of in rational pursuit of clear quantifiable objectives, your system is going to start falling apart.

    Of course, you could say the same thing about making decisions out of bloodlust, too.
    Isn't justice a form of bloodlust though?
    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

  7. #257
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
    As I have already apologized for my statements and retracted my statements on the subject, I will do so again. I'm sorry I said rape is not a violent crime.
    It's cool man. I think you did what a lot of us do and got caught up in reply and weren't really anaylzing EVERY word you wrote down before you say it. It's hard to do that and I have to stop myself in some threads and usually take a few days before I reply again.
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

  8. #258
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jryan View Post
    Right, to know the application of things you must know the theories TurtleDude.

    As a lawyer I thought you would know though that being emotionally involved changes disables a person from being a witness, a juror, a clergy, or a lawyer (Although not sure about the last two). If you don't think free will has anything to do with the subject at hand then I suggest you reread my points on this thread. I say that the law should be amended to dictate that if someone is being raped, and no one is in danger of being physically/mentally altered (The woman is already mentally/physically altered seeing as how she is already raped), then the person with the gun pointing at the bad guy should say, "Stop it!", if they don't or they make any move to run/hurt someone, shoot... Most would say the monster deserves to be shot anyways. That is why I'm arguing that sense free will does not exist, we cannot punish these people because they are in a sense, "A victim of society".


    why do you say stuff to me as if I need education in a field you know nothing about?

    shoot someone in self defense as I have, spend 6 hours in front of a grand jury, then 8 more hours testifying at trials, then spend 300 hours lecturing police recruits and armed citizens about the matter and then get back to me. Oh try a few felony assault cases as well.

  9. #259
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by stonewall50 View Post
    It's cool man. I think you did what a lot of us do and got caught up in reply and weren't really anaylzing EVERY word you wrote down before you say it. It's hard to do that and I have to stop myself in some threads and usually take a few days before I reply again.
    Yeah, sometimes I will be like halfway through a reply and then realize, "WTF am I writing." lol, sucks though when you hit that post button and someone responds, or in this case the entire DP community, you then go nuts and stick to your crazy guns. Oh well, that is what it is like to be human.

    "To err is human, to forgive is divine."
    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

  10. #260
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    re: Florida Law on use of deadly force [W:390]

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    why do you say stuff to me as if I need education in a field you know nothing about?

    shoot someone in self defense as I have, spend 6 hours in front of a grand jury, then 8 more hours testifying at trials, then spend 300 hours lecturing police recruits and armed citizens about the matter and then get back to me. Oh try a few felony assault cases as well.
    So lawyers are all knowing because of their experience?

    BTW, shooting someone in self defense only makes you emotionally involved...
    Last edited by Jryan; 04-06-12 at 04:28 PM.
    I'm coming to see that no matter what law we regulate, be it the stand your ground act, there is never an objective morally right answer to any morale question; in fact, since there are multiple objectively right answers to every moral question that leaves us with a lot of grey area and a lot of black area (not in the racial since).
    -Jryan

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